Tithing…Is it a command?

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

This is not always necessarily true. I used to attend a church where tithing was not taught, free will offerings were taught as the way to go. This church rarely ever had any fundraisers. Well, I honestly don't remember having any at all. It was a decent-sized church, too. A nice building. Full-time pastor who was supported by the church. I don't remember the pastor ever begging for money. Just passed the offering pans each service, and that was that. The windows of Heaven were not closed, either. It was a blessed church.

I've attended churches where tithing was taught as a command, and they constantly were having fund-raisers and money struggles.

So you can't go by that alone. You have to stick with scripture. Does the Bible require it, or does it not.

I don't see any Scriptural reference in your response. In fact, you are going against Scriptural reference. The windows of Heaven opening is Scriptural, based on Tithing and giving. And, a great deal of people may have Tithed in that church, others not knowing if they did. Many people carry this conviction from the past and maintain this practice without wavering.

Also, numbers help a church, which you stated your church as being large. The more people, the less giving is needed to sustain. Starting a Home Missions work 11 years ago, no one knows what sacrafice is until they have experienced this type of ministry. Every resource possible was needed to get this work off the ground.

You also did not respond to what Jesus said; Give what belongs to Ceaser, and give what belongs to God.

What belongs to Ceaser? and what belongs to God? Percentage has to take part in both of these.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Tithes help sustain the ministry, keep the lights on, pay for land, buildings, sound equipment, ect.

can I get chapter and verse on that? How are sound systems "meat in mine house?"

Originally Posted by NotforSale

People that come to church, not supporting the "Structure", or that don't help sustain those who labor to "Feed" them, are stealing. This may offend you and others reading this, but it's the truth. It creates the "Taker" mindset, or the "Something for nothing (welfare)" mentality. Give me, and I'll take more!

There is nothing wrong with supporting ministry-but I for one am unimpressed with the argument of those "who labor among us". In my area many oneness pastors have never held a real job. I can't help but wonder who has the welfare mentality. I preach often, yet I work a full time job, and in addition, don't ask wages for preaching. If I can get paid from the secular world, why burden the church? Let someone who is in need get that money.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

In 30 years of serving God, I've seen all spectrums of this subject. I've watched those hord their money, only giving when it's conveinent. It is so obvious they are missing something, and struggles in life seem to always get the best of them. They're never really in, because they have their eye on their wallet. They also never appreciate what is around them, because the building, the lights, the signs, the parking lot, the electricity, the heat, the AC, the Pastor's salary, on and on we could go, is paid by those who dig deep and walk by Faith.

Have you ever read the parable of the righteous Pharisee and the humble sinner?

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Leaving it up to people to determine what percentage belongs to God will drive Churches to excessive fund raising, begging for offerings, and people who spend what's God's on things that don't last. It will also close the windows of Heaven, period!!

The church I attend teaches against tithes, yet somehow we make it just fine without all of the dire straights you name. I don't even know the recipe for peanut brittle, and have never seen a church garage sale (except at a tithing church). Furthermore, other groups who don't tithe-such as the Churches of Christ, JW's, etc. seem to be making it okay.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

If you don't want to Tithe because you see corrupted ministry or the mishandling of funds, this gives you no excuse to spend it on what you want.

change "tithe" to "give", AMEN.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

The Tithe is God's! And, most who Tithe give much more than 10% because they have proven God. That's right PROVEN Him!! The Bible says to PROVE God. I have, and He has never let me down. The cruse of oil faileth not!

Most people I have spoken to tell me how they struggle to even pay tithes. And I used to believe "tithes or HELL" myself, and belong to a church with that mindset. But many admitted to struggling just to pay them. I was even told by the minister that for a while He was putting tithes on his credit card because he was so broke.

Based on your post, I doubt you have ever truly studied out tithes according to the Bible, just sounds like alot of pot shots.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Jason

can I get chapter and verse on that? How are sound systems "meat in mine house?"

There is nothing wrong with supporting ministry-but I for one am unimpressed with the argument of those "who labor among us". In my area many oneness pastors have never held a real job. I can't help but wonder who has the welfare mentality. I preach often, yet I work a full time job, and in addition, don't ask wages for preaching. If I can get paid from the secular world, why burden the church? Let someone who is in need get that money.


Have you ever read the parable of the righteous Pharisee and the humble sinner?

The church I attend teaches against tithes, yet somehow we make it just fine without all of the dire straights you name. I don't even know the recipe for peanut brittle, and have never seen a church garage sale (except at a tithing church). Furthermore, other groups who don't tithe-such as the Churches of Christ, JW's, etc. seem to be making it okay.

change "tithe" to "give", AMEN.

Most people I have spoken to tell me how they struggle to even pay tithes. And I used to believe "tithes or HELL" myself, and belong to a church with that mindset. But many admitted to struggling just to pay them. I was even told by the minister that for a while He was putting tithes on his credit card because he was so broke.

Based on your post, I doubt you have ever truly studied out tithes according to the Bible, just sounds like alot of pot shots.

Your statement regarding Lights, Sound Systems, ect., is mindless dribble. In case you haven't noticed, these are a part of Church dynamics today in this Country. We use these modern day formats to accomplish many things; tape/CD ministry, Lights so we can have church at night, ect. When you eat at a resturaunt, the bill you pay helps to sustain the whole opperation, not just the food in the freezer.

I've pastored for the last 13 years, working a secular job most of the time. I'm currently self employed, running my own Insurance Agency for the last five years. This has enabled us to pay off our building and land early. We came to this city 11 years ago and started a church from nothing, having services in our home. If you haven't been invovled with this type of work, you will never understand the sacrafice and committment needed to really do God's work.

The amount of the Tithe has nothing to do with my post. The "Tithe" is what matters. You can be a theif if it's 10 cents, or 10 dollars. When the bill comes to the table after eating, that's what you owe. If you eat and don't pay or just pay part of the bill, you are a theif.

Tithe and offering are different. No rocket science here. Giving is a part of both. They both must come from a willing heart. All requirements of God must be done with a willing heart.

I never said "Tithe or Hell". And, your referall to amount has nothing to do with Tithing. It's not how much, it's are you Tithing. Anyone who puts Tithes on a credit card has a problem with money, most likely. Americans don't budget correctly, over-extending themselves.

As far as studying out the issue, you are the one who shows much ignorance. You, and others, have still not addressed what Jesus said about rendering unto God what is God's. What is God's?? There has to be an amount. Jesus compared what was Ceasers, to what was God's; a percentage prevailed here.

Furthermore, I'll say this. People in this Country have complained about Illegal Immigration. The number one reason for this is, this group of people has "drained" our system, bringing states like California to the brink of Bankruptcy. I am from California and lived there 34 years. I watched many changes take place because people were unwilliing to abide by the law of paying income tax, or use the medical system that they never contributed to, or live in public housing that was funded by government programs.

We can deny this all we want to, but the Church is a system, requiring financial proceeds. Tithing in this Country is on the down-turn, people becoming "Illegal Aliens", sucking from the system, and not appreciating what they have. They want to call the police, but not fund the police department. They want the protection of our Military, but don't want to pay those who are in harms way. They want the Pastor to run to their every need, but the Tithe, forget that, that's MY MONEY!!

And, it bugs me to no end, that the laity sometimes thinks the Pastor has to live like a paulper, while they drive a nice car and have a nice home. Our culture is different here, and we abound in ways because many Americans work very hard. I didn't ask to be born here, and my prosperity has come through getting off of the couch and embracing the field of hard work.

[A.W. Bowman]

Pastors of the many churches I have visited over the years should be very glad that I have not held them to teaching honestly about tithes - from a biblical point of view, rather than from taking a personal, supplementary income position.

First, they would have to pay me my portion of the church tithe, even as a visitor: A portion of the tithe must go to the poor. Then, everyone who works in or for the church is also due their share of the tithe, from those who sing and dance, who tend to the grounds, open the doors, greet people, etc. Then, no one who receives a portion of the tithe that is set aside to the priests (aka ministry) is not allowed to own land or work outside of the church environment. This means everyone except the poor, the widow and the orphan must confine their labor to (and on) the church property.

But, the teachers of the law don't teach all of the applicable law, do they? Do these teachers even know the ten tithing ordinances? If they don't know the law, they should not be teaching it. If they do know the law, then they are deliberately distorting it for their own gain. (See 1 Timothy 1:5-11 and Acts 20:29-35)

But, then again, the church is more like a synagogue than The Temple. So, there is no Temple tax required, and the leaders of the synagogues were not qualified to receive a portion of the priestly tithe.

If it is the will of an assembly to agree with a congregational leader, that in order to be a member of a particular church and attend its meetings, one must pay a tribute to the the local priest, then so be it. All that the rest of asks is that you (anyone) do not attempt to impose your extra biblical laws on the entire body of Christ.

Some ordinances (?) were nailed to the cross, and yet we have been blessed with all heavenly blessings in their stead, we no longer have to "buy blessings" (bribe God by trying to "out give" Him), as it is frequently taught today. That was a great exchange in our favor! Yet - remember this does not relieve us our obligations to support those who go out and preach and teach the gospel, or to continue to take care of the poor, or each other, etc. Giving vs. tithing is NOT an all or nothing proposition. It best summed up in 2 Corinthians 9:6-15.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Pastors of the many churches I have visited over the years should be very glad that I have not held them to teaching honestly about tithes - from a biblical point of view, rather than from taking a personal, supplementary income position.

First, they would have to pay me my portion of the church tithe, even as a visitor: A portion of the tithe must go to the poor. Then, everyone who works in or for the church is also due their share of the tithe, from those who sing and dance, who tend to the grounds, open the doors, greet people, etc. Then, no one who receives a portion of the tithe that is set aside to the priests (aka ministry) is not allowed to own land or work outside of the church environment. This means everyone except the poor, the widow and the orphan must confine their labor to (and on) the church property.

But, the teachers of the law don't teach all of the applicable law, do they? Do these teachers even know the ten tithing ordinances? If they don't know the law, they should not be teaching it. If they do know the law, then they are deliberately distorting it for their own gain. (See 1 Timothy 1:5-11 and Acts 20:29-35)

But, then again, the church is more like a synagogue than The Temple. So, there is no Temple tax required, and the leaders of the synagogues were not qualified to receive a portion of the priestly tithe.

If it is the will of an assembly to agree with a congregational leader, that in order to be a member of a particular church and attend its meetings, one must pay a tribute to the the local priest, then so be it. All that the rest of asks is that you do not attempt to impose your extra biblical laws on the entire body of Christ.

Some ordinances were nailed to the cross, and all of the heavenly blessings have been substituted in their place. That was a great exchange in our favor! Yet - remember this does not relieve us our obligations to support those who go out and preach and teach the gospel, or to continue to take care of the poor, or each other, etc. Giving vs. tithing is NOT an all or nothing proposition. It best summed up in 2 Corinthians 9:6-15.

Well said... great post.

[A.W. Bowman]

I had to make a couple of changes/corrections/additions to my original post. LOLOL, and needed to add the following comment:

After all is said and done, Jesus also recognized that the needs of men to receive their financial due, He instructed Peter to get the required tax money and pay it. Matthew 17:24-27.

This is why I do not make too many local waves with this subject. As stated above, if it is the desire of the congregation to use this method of raising money to pay its local leader for services rendered, then let be so. I choose the direct giving method.

[A.W. Bowman]

These kinds of forums, such as AFF, are great for expressing and sharing ideas and points of view, but they are almost worthless for sharing (presenting) a sound scriptural teaching – on almost most any subject! About the best anyone can expect is to state what they believe and why, and let everyone else do the same. That is, allow every opinion be “right” and simply allowing them to be expressed and moving on to the next discussion.

Or, the membership can set aside an open the forum to someone who has to be justified in their position, and turn the thread over to them – and allow them to teach their doctrine, and to do so with out objections or interruption.

On the issue of tithing, there are two decidedly different points of view being expressed. One is that tithing is not a New Covenant requirement, and other side is that tithing is required of N.T. believers.

For the side that says tithing does not exist for the N.T. church: That position is given as an axiom and does not require a proof. The burden of proof that tithing does, in fact, exist as a New Testament church requirement rests with the ones making the claim that tithing does exist and applies to the N.T. church.

Therefore, I make the following suggestion.

There are ten tithing statutes in the Bible. Will someone please take up the task of teaching the intent and application all these statutes, and explain how each of them are to be scripturally applied to the New Covenant church? Then if there are any questions, they can be addressed after the lesson(s). That should resolve the controversy quite nicely.

Let the teaching begin.

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

These kinds of forums, such as AFF, are great for expressing and sharing ideas and points of view, but they are almost worthless for sharing (presenting) a sound scriptural teaching – on almost most any subject! About the best anyone can expect is to state what they believe and why, and let everyone else do the same. That is, allow every opinion be “right” and simply allowing them to be expressed and moving on to the next discussion.

Or, the membership can set aside an open the forum to someone who has to be justified in their position, and turn the thread over to them – and allow them to teach their doctrine, and to do so with out objections or interruption.

On the issue of tithing, there are two decidedly different points of view being expressed. One is that tithing is not a New Covenant requirement, and other side is that tithing is required of N.T. believers.

For the side that says tithing does not exist for the N.T. church: That position is given as an axiom and does not require a proof. The burden of proof that tithing does, in fact, exist as a New Testament church requirement rests with the ones making the claim that tithing does exist and applies to the N.T. church.

Therefore, I make the following suggestion.

There are ten tithing statutes in the Bible. Will someone please take up the task of teaching the intent and application all these statutes, and explain how each of them are to be scripturally applied to the New Covenant church? Then if there are any questions, they can be addressed after the lesson(s). That should resolve the controversy quite nicely.

Let the teaching begin.

Excellent suggestion! I'll wait for the lesson, I'm sure it won't be a long wait. Right?

[Shawn]

[The Lemon]

There are alot of points being made, some Biblical, some not. I don't mean to call you on the floor NFS, but to me it sounds like you are trying to justify the sacrifices that you and your family have made for the kingdom, starting a home missions work, based off of a structure and plan that you have been taught works.

I do not mean to say anything negative about your sacrifices for God, the Lord forbid. I thank God for anyone who will crucify the flesh and follow the call of God to reach souls. I would to God you be blessed in all you do for Jesus Christ.

Giving works...period. It takes giving and sacrifice...period. Where I am different in my stance, is that the Tithe is taught in many cases as essential, salvational, and a gauge for a persons spirituality or if they are "Right with God". This is, as far as I have been able to tell, from scripture, not the way we are to give (Of Necessity). There have been studies on this forum about the Tithe that usually get ignored by those who teach it as the plan of God for financing the work. Conversely, the side that does not teach the necessity of the Tithe tend to rant on those that do.

It seems there is no balance and personal attacks become inevitable. I have said this before, just because something "Works" does not mean it is necessarily right. Go talk to the JW or the Mormon and thell them there structure does not work....sure it does! Does that mean they teach truth? No!

Tithing church's are not the only church's that are sucessful. There are plenty who practice giving and not Tithing that are very sucessful. To say the ONLY model or even the only RIGHT model for a sucessful church in terms of financing the work, is Tithing, is absurd. But I totally understand why some folks support the teaching of Tithing, especially if that is how they were taught and it is what they have done in their ministry, after all....it does work....why? Because it is GIVING.

At any rate, the point that KEEPS GETTING MISSED, is that most of those who are posting on this thread give well over 10%. They do not have a "Money Monkey" on their back....I am just confused as to where that is coming from, I don't see it in DFT's posts.

If you go to a church that has an agreement for active members to Tithe, and a convenant is made and all are on board...fine. But to teach it as a mandatory law of God for NT believers is not Biblical, and no one who says it is has supported it with detailed study showing scripture. Especially when it is tied into a persons standing with God.

Just my thoughts...I sincerely mean no disrespect to anyone.