Faith: How Far Is Too Far?

[A_PoMo]

hey dude. i haven't forgotten about this. i'll get to it. it's just that i've been sick all weekend and i don't feel up to engaging in anything beyond carnal no-brainer stuff like on the other threads. i barely made it thru class last night and am not looking forward to class tomorrow night. i keep looking at my homework and procrastinating. this is a cool discussion. i'll come back to it because i like your attitude and i can learn something from you.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

"But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." (Matt 19:26 - KJV)

There are several scriptures in the Bible that speak of God's ability to do all things. And then there are scriptures like Ephesians 3:20 that God can do, through the power that works in us, exceedingly abundantly above all that we can ask or think.

Assuming that a person is not in greed or selfish gain is there a limit on faith? There are many preachers in the news about their wealth, jets, cars and so forth (remember assuming things are not for selfish gain) is there a limit on what you should believe for?

If all things are possible, then why do we limit God? Isn't God glorified through the manifestation of abundance? Look at Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, King David, Solomon who were beyond wealthy.

What say you?

Does God concern himself with our wants or our needs?

And when it comes to wealth...is he concerned about our needs or our wants...is He about building OUR personal kingdoms or HIS?

King David and Solomon were beyond wealthy, but they were not part of a spiritual kingdom but an earthly one. They truely stored their treasures here on earth. But was everyone in Israel that prosperous? Can everyone be the King of Israel? The Apostles were poor...the Jerusalem was so poor they survived on offerings from other churches.... where they weak in faith?

[A_PoMo]

"We are also sending out national missionaries much cheaper than supporting Americans and their lavish (usually) lifestyle...the national can live about anywhere, eat anything and does not need a lot of things we Americans think we need."

I just saw this on another thread about missionaries. Thought it was relevant.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

"We are also sending out national missionaries much cheaper than supporting Americans and their lavish (usually) lifestyle...the national can live about anywhere, eat anything and does not need a lot of things we Americans think we need."

I just saw this on another thread about missionaries. Thought it was relevant.

I love missions!!!!! I think I've been around the world twice in supporting missions. But the one thing I have against the American missionary program is that we have focused too much on sending Americans to live luxuriously in foreign fields, and not enough time raising up national leaders. The national leaders we have raised we've made too many dependent on us instead of on God.

In other words, I agree with what you just said

[A_PoMo]

You're right, it is an enjoyable conversation. But I'm not sure we can continue because we don't agree on the right way to divide the word. It's difficult to discuss Scripture when we can't agree on the rules. I think you've come up with some pretty novel interpretations. But I think a better explanation is that it's a result of God's gifting in your life and not a result of your faith. I sincerely and deeply appreciate your heart for God and for the work of God. I wish more people felt like you do in that regard. You'd be hard pressed to tell a believer in Darfur or the ghetto of Mexico city that it's their fault that they're poor and that if they'll just believe God that they'll be rich. I think it's better to look at wealth as part of the great equalizing force of the HS as rich people give to poor people and we demonstrate to the world the revolution of the kingdom of God that we are all equal and God is no respector of persons. I agree, the purpose of God is not salvation, it's God's glory. The Calvinists got that part right. God is glorified in our weakness, not our strength.

[gloryseeker]

I think your other post summed it up that we really agree more than we disagree. It think as you stated here, the problem is in the rules of interpretations that we use.

Part of it is that I am misunderstood because I am willing to throw my faith out into the impossible realms. Of what you said in this post I have to address one area.

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

You'd be hard pressed to tell a believer in Darfur or the ghetto of Mexico city that it's their fault that they're poor and that if they'll just believe God that they'll be rich.

A couple of things. It's not a "fault" issue. Someone in a poor country is subject to the economic conditions of that country until they get a revelation of the Word. When they separate themselves from the system that is impoverishing their nation and operate in God's system they can rise above that. Not that they will be a Bill Gates, but where they will have all sufficiency in all things.

I don't preach a "rich" gospel, I preach a "more than enough" gospel. How much is enough? Well, how much do you want to expand the gospel?

Finally, I am not hard pressed to do what you stated. In August I preached three Pastor conference in the remote areas of India. Around 1,000 Pastors in total. I preached out of Col 3:


Col 3:1-2
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. (KJV)

Where's your thinking, above or on the earth?

I've preached similar messages in Kenya, Uganda, Russia, Bangladesh, China, Thailand, and Poland. I believe that the Word is not subject to the conditions of the earth. The conditions of the earth are subject to the Word.


2 Cor 4:18
18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal. (NKJ)

[A_PoMo]

Like I said, if we can't agree on the rules then trying to discuss authorial intent is tough to accomplish in any sort of cogent way. However, I do applaud you for your obvious passion for the kingdom and I thank God for his obvious blessings on you. I am a man of means as well but have found my wealth to be a burden rather than a blessing and am actively trying to divest myself of my stuff including my Benz and my Jag. As soon as this durned housing market recovers I'm going to sell my properties and happily join the ranks of the downwardly mobile. I just find material wealth to be a drag on my life and not a blessing because I have come to the conclusion that it is worth nothing. Even so, while I don't agree with your hermeneutics I do agree in principle with your overall vision and am thankful that you have chosen to use your wealth to help people rather than for more selfish purposes. That's a good thing.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

I am a man of means as well but have found my wealth to be a burden rather than a blessing and am actively trying to divest myself of my stuff including my Benz and my Jag.

Feel free to transfer your assets to me. I am not only a giver, but I am a receiver

As soon as this durned housing market recovers I'm going to sell my properties and happily join the ranks of the downwardly mobile. I just find material wealth to be a drag on my life and not a blessing because I have come to the conclusion that it is worth nothing.

You are right that money is worth nothing, this is why I can easily give. Just realize that while wealth is a drag, poverty is a greater drag. The key is not having or not having money. The key is what you are doing with what you have.

Most who have money, their money is their security thus becoming a burden to maintain. Let go of the money (not by going broke) but by not allowing it to control you. I mentioned in another post that which brings more glory, my driving a BMW or a Yugo. In reality I drive a 2003 Buick Regal. It's a nice car, but cars are only a tool. I am not defined by it.

I would rather drive a nice $20K car and put $20K into the Kingdom than drive a $40K car. I have a credit card with a $50K line of credit, but I am not indebted to it.

From a Kingdom standpoint. I want to give a minimum of 51% of my gross income into the Kingdom. So, from a Kingdom standpoint, is it better for me to make $30K, $100K, or $10 million a year? It is obvious that the more I make the better it is for the Kingdom.

The problem is most people can't do what I am doing because of the control of money, which is where the drag is. You see, if you are not free with money the problem is not the money the problem is the heart, which means you won't be free without money.

The reality is if I was making $10 million a year and putting $5.1 million into the Kingdom, I would catch slack from religious people as to why I owned nice things. It's not the money it's the heart. From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

I guarantee you that the majority of the advocates of the poor who have posted in these threads give very little to the poor. I however help the poor a lot. Which is better for the poor, for me to be broke like them or for me to have more than enough to help them? The answer is obvious.

What I am saying to you is, don't be so quick to try and sell everything and be poor, just be willing to use what you have for the Kingdom. If the Lord wants you to sell it, sell it. If the Lord wants you to sow it, sow it. Be led by the Spirit.

[A_PoMo]

Dude, I'm w/ya. Don't think I'm advocating poverty. Far from it. I want to eradicate poverty. But, I also want to eradicate this whole idea of the need for stuff. Why stop at 51%? Give 99%. Set a reasonable income for yourself, say $50-75,000 a year and live w/in that and give the rest away. I never said I was going to be poor, just downwardly mobile. Believe me, I'll have a warm, dry, safe place to live, reliable vehicles, good food, a big TV w/cable, clean clothes to wear, etc... However, even w/all that I'm still living in luxury compared to the rest of the world. But I still am making a visible statement against consumerism and materialism that I believe is a spiritual cancer in our culture as my lifestyle is measurably less self-indulgent that the culture around me, even church culture. Each of us has a calling and a gifting. Some of us are called to give and sow our money and we are gifted (blessed) w/the means to do so. Others of us are called to give and sow ourselves and we are gifted to do so. For me the material wealth is getting in the way of me giving myself in ministry due to the time and energy it takes to pay for and maintain it. Thus, I make the choice to let it go in order to better pursue my calling. This is easy for me to do since I no longer place any value (other than some sentimental value on certain things) on the stuff. I believe this is the attitude Christ want us to have relative to wealth.

[bkstokes]

One of the authors in Proverbs states it well (and I paraphrase). Lord don't let me be poor or wealthy.