Tithing…Is it a command?

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Well just a brief report in this poor economic climate. From a ministry standpoint December was our best month financially of 2008...Jan through April has been stronger than 2008 also. On a personal note our income and giving has increased also.

Wow! I love God's system...tithes and offerings are cool!!!!

What do you say to people who have tithed faithfully, and have been hit hard by these economic times? Losing their jobs, cars, houses, etc?

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

What do you say to people who have tithed faithfully, and have been hit hard by these economic times? Losing their jobs, cars, houses, etc?

To make a long answer very short:

1. Tithing is not a money transaction...it's about honor so I would start with the basics on how/why the person is giving and the difference between giving in faith and giving out of ritual.

2. Then I would explore other issues of life. Because tithing is not an end all. A person can tithe, but be living in sin and their tithing is not going to over ride other aspects of their life.

3. Then I would show them how their faith, the Word, God's promises, and their life can turn their situation around.

Now, after saying that I would say that I don't think I have ever had anyone get into the type of scenario that you described because I am proactive and not reactive. My favorite illustration is that it is easier to believe for a safe airline flight before you get on the plane then to believe that everything will be okay at 30,000 feet and having the engines go out.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

It is interesting to read all the post that this thread has created. It is especially interesting to read all the "biblical reasoning" why the tithe is some OT done away with system.

Well, as a strong advocate of tithing (actually in my opinion tithing is not even giving - our giving starts after the tithe because God said that the tithe is His, not that it becomes His) I have been told by people on AFF that "God would teach me something" meaning that I was going to loose income or go down because of my beliefs.

Well just a brief report in this poor economic climate. From a ministry standpoint December was our best month financially of 2008...Jan through April has been stronger than 2008 also. On a personal note our income and giving has increased also.

Wow! I love God's system...tithes and offerings are cool!!!!

I'm glad someone has finally come in to help me out a little. God's system is important, valid, and does work with a flow that comes from above.

I will say though, people who Tithe or give, can lose thier job, face very difficult times financially, even to the point of losing everything. God's blessing comes in other forms, not just financial or substance.

God can help us internally, putting vigor in the soul to press on, learn a new trade, or win battles when all odds are against us. Prosperity has many faces. For instance, a poor person can be rich in spirit, possesing a peace that passes all understanding. I've seen those with very little, shine with Joy unspeakable. This prosperity, money can't buy.

Also, I won't discredit how God can carry us through the darkest of times. The world can fall apart, but nothing is too hard for God. He can give us provision when death's door is what seems to be next. He can send a raven to feed us, or fill the cruse with oil when all oil is gone.

[Jason B]

Glory, who said God would teach you a leeson? I specifically said, you would be blessed (IMO)-but not because of "tithing", but because of the principle of reaping and sowing sparingly or bountifully.

What bothers me about you on this subject is that you justify yourself because of what you do (tithe). You ALMOST come across as having purchased your own salvation through "obedience to the law" rather than the blood of Christ. I am pretty sure you don't believe this, but you certainly come across that way sometimes.

PS-We are still waiting for someone to give us a scriptural example that we are supposed to tithe money, so that we can all get right with God. Maybe you have the secret scripture? Please share your scriptural proof that tithing (money) is binding on Christians.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Jason

Glory, who said God would teach you a leeson? I specifically said, you would be blessed (IMO)-but not because of "tithing", but because of the principle of reaping and sowing sparingly or bountifully.

What bothers me about you on this subject is that you justify yourself because of what you do (tithe). You ALMOST come across as having purchased your own salvation through "obedience to the law" rather than the blood of Christ. I am pretty sure you don't believe this, but you certainly come across that way sometimes.

I understand what you are saying in this, I definitely don't believe that way, but get what you are saying. However, think about it for a moment...

1. I am confident. Now you don't know me, but by reading posts confidence can easily come across as arrogance. In fact, if you have ever been around successful people they typically are accused of being arrogant.

2. To illustrate my point I have to share the results of what I am doing. Again, it is going to sound something like your description. I get that, but to say there are blessings in this without expressing that I live in blessings is kind of a mute point.

3. There is also a class envy that operates in the arena of money. Our politicians thrive on trying to make those who have money look like they took advantage of others. In addition to that our American way is that we blame everyone else for our struggles. Therefore, when someone starts talking about being blessed all these stereotypes start getting stirred up and so we look those who have as something other than they are.

Your last point, about "biblical proof" is laughable. It does not matter which scriptures people post those who have money issues have their reasons why they don't apply. It's like asking a thief on the street about what they stole and they have all their reasons why it wasn't stealing...."ahhhhh, the bike was just sitting their I thought they didn't want it anymore..."

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

I understand what you are saying in this, I definitely don't believe that way, but get what you are saying. However, think about it for a moment...

1. I am confident. Now you don't know me, but by reading posts confidence can easily come across as arrogance. In fact, if you have ever been around successful people they typically are accused of being arrogant.

2. To illustrate my point I have to share the results of what I am doing. Again, it is going to sound something like your description. I get that, but to say there are blessings in this without expressing that I live in blessings is kind of a mute point.

3. There is also a class envy that operates in the arena of money. Our politicians thrive on trying to make those who have money look like they took advantage of others. In addition to that our American way is that we blame everyone else for our struggles. Therefore, when someone starts talking about being blessed all these stereotypes start getting stirred up and so we look those who have as something other than they are.

concerning 1&2 I likewise understand where you are coming from.

#3 confuses me-are you saying people who struggle are blaming it on folks who pay tithes? I'm not stirred up by your blessing, and again, I am not struggling. I am asst general manager/director of produce operations of a grocery store corperation with several locations in north texas. I'm not rich, but I have a good base salary, plus quarterly bonuses. I'm not jealous of your money, or your blessing. I don't need your money, I am quite able to make it fine on what I make.

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Your last point, about "biblical proof" is laughable. It does not matter which scriptures people post those who have money issues have their reasons why they don't apply. It's like asking a thief on the street about what they stole and they have all their reasons why it wasn't stealing...."ahhhhh, the bike was just sitting their I thought they didn't want it anymore..."

What's laughable is that we are practically BEGGING you guys to PROVE your posistion with some scripture-and the repsonse we get when we ask for scripture is: "thieves!!!"

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Jason

#3 confuses me-are you saying people who struggle are blaming it on folks who pay tithes? I'm not stirred up by your blessing, and again, I am not struggling. I am asst general manager/director of produce operations of a grocery store corperation with several locations in north texas. I'm not rich, but I have a good base salary, plus quarterly bonuses. I'm not jealous of your money, or your blessing. I don't need your money, I am quite able to make it fine on what I make.

No, #3 really had nothing to do with tithes or no tithes. It was dealing with those who have money and those who don't. My point was, like in the secular environment, those without money typically blame those with money as taking advantage of people, having unfair advantages, etc.

Bringing that into the church setting, there are more devils working on the money issue then on the music department Therefore, if someone stands up and says that they are blessed because they have tithed or given faithfully that same spirit works are those who are struggling to make it. They proclaim it wasn't the tithe, they have some unfair advantage, their smarter...whatever the excuse is.

It had no implication as to your job or your level of income. What happens is that our "jobs" become our source, which brings us into another problem. My wife is a teacher. In California teachers make a pretty decent salary. However, we don't live off her (or my) income we live off our giving. I couldn't tell you the number of ways that money comes to us. It is bizarre! But we are faithful with our money. We don't live a lavish lifestyle, because our focus is to keep missionaries in the field, keep the church strong, and help those who the Lord directs us to.

I am not the sharpest pencil in the box. Where we are today is not by our intellect, it is because we have learned how to operate in the provision of God.

Now, a down the road scenario. You have a job at the grocery store and probably make a pretty decent salary. My wife has a job at the school and makes a pretty decent salary. If both of you lost your job you are stuck having to get another job, but her job is not our source. My giving gives me covenant rights because my source is the Lord. I don't own anything I am just a manager of God's stuff. If God wants me to sell it or give it away I can because it is His. It really is a cool system that God has and He is really faithful to uphold His Word.

[Jason B]

ok GS, I've heard the "source" stuff before. I think it's off base. People who don't believe tithes are binding on the New Testament church(such as myself) don't feel like we, or our job is the source. I am sueprvisor over more than 300 employees, at 27. I have been a supervisor since I was 24. I always have did things according to the word. Truth be told, years ago I was a cashier, I hated doing that. But reading the Word, it said work as unto the Lord. I put that principle into effect in my life. And tried to become the best cashier in the company. Moved from entry level to executive level in about 3 years. The majority of my employees (not counting sack boys) are 40-60's in age. Did I do it? No, I followed God's word. Did man promote me? Maybe-but all of my promotion I give God glory and thanks for. Because promotion doesn't come from the north or south, it comes from the Lord.

Our disagreement isn't giving to God, or God having provided for us. Our disagreement is that the scripture teaches a specific percentage that you must give monetarily. I make a majority of my living from what I have done in the Produce Operation. If I bring broccoli and brussels sprouts for tithe to a tithing pastor-wil they accept it, or will they want money?

Which brings me back to the part of my post you did not answer:

Originally Posted by Jason

What's laughable is that we are practically BEGGING you guys to PROVE your posistion with some scripture-and the repsonse we get when we ask for scripture is: "thieves!!!"

BUMP-GS or Not For Sale

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Jason

I always have did things according to the word. Truth be told, years ago I was a cashier, I hated doing that. But reading the Word, it said work as unto the Lord.

You make a good point here that I agree with, although not the topic of this thread. Tithing is not an "end all" to walking in the blessings of the Lord. There are many things...faithfulness, giving God glory for promotions, working as unto the Lord, etc. All of these play into our ability to walk in blessings.

I guess where I differ from you, is that the promises associated with the tithe makes me immune from the conditions of the world. You brought up those losing their homes, cars, etc. There is no failure or lack in God. Therefore, it does not matter what is going on around me if I live according to all that God has commanded.

Which brings me back to the part of my post you did not answer

I was talking to a guy one time who didn't believe in the infilling of the Holy Spirit, speaking tongues, and such. His explanation of the scriptures was that when a person accepts the Lord he is "filled" with the Spirit. I would ask, what about (give a scripture), how about (give a scripture), etc. Every scripture that talked about the infilling he had a reason why that didn't apply to the conversation.

Talking to someone who doesn't see the tithe as part of God's system is the same way. You say you are begging for scripture, but if you just scroll through this thread and the multitude of other threads about tithing you will find a lot of scriptural references....you just don't see, won't accept it, or disagree with the scripture.

It's a mute point to post them again.

[Crossfire]

The tithe as we know it today, is a false doctrine instituted by the Roman Catholic Church, and was brought into the true church by converts from the false religion. There is absolutely no scriptural support for this false doctrine. Teachers/Preachers/Ministers who teach this doctrine of a tax on being a believers are frauding the people of God and will stand before God for their lies.