I missed the rapture?

[jmarkoa]

OK, I read about the first half of the study and skimmed through the last half. I also spoke to a pastor for about an hour that held the same view. It was as if he just read the same study, almost an identical linear thought process that hinges on the strict adherence to the exact time frame of 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24.

Well, not really the exact time frame. There is an algebraic equation, one day equals one year, not mentioned in the scripture that must be applied before even beginning this study. A difficult pill to swallow when your belief hangs on the thread of a time frame needing to be exact. The scriptures also talk of a breakdown into three groups of time, seven weeks, sixty-two weeks, and one week. But for some reason, they must all be connected, with no gaps, for this study to hold together. The 70 weeks, or actually 490 years once decoded, must be an exact time and in order with no gaps, but I was never able to find in scripture where those MUST be the case; two crucial unfounded points to begin this entire way of believing.

I have also found it interesting how everyone with this belief starts with this very point. Its almost like there is a hidden wormhole in the Bible to another universe of Bible thinking. Once you've found it, you're sucked in never to return. No one ever starts their debate anywhere else. It all starts and ends with time. I have never had someone try to convince me 70 weeks absolutely positively must mean 490 years, but its absurd to think that one thousand years actually means one thousand years, all in the same attempt of understanding the actual words about time in the scriptures.

So, I think this is as far as I need to go. There are just too many assumptions and unsubstantiated statements in the first three paragraphs alone, I don't think I could ever come to the same conclusions drawn by this study. I might be wrong. Forgive me if I am.

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to teach me this other viewpoint. This will now always be a thought in the back of my mind when doing further study. I will continue to weight it as I learn new things...

Mark

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

OK, I read about the first half of the study and skimmed through the last half. I also spoke to a pastor for about an hour that held the same view. It was as if he just read the same study, almost an identical linear thought process that hinges on the strict adherence to the exact time frame of 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24.

Bro. Mark, would you please explain which of the six points found in Daniel 9:24 are NOT YET fulfilled by Jesus?

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Well, not really the exact time frame. There is an algebraic equation, one day equals one year, not mentioned in the scripture that must be applied before even beginning this study. A difficult pill to swallow when your belief hangs on the thread of a time frame needing to be exact.

This “algebraic equation” (your words, not mine) is not found there simply because you are wrongly interpreting Peter’s words. I said you can ask me for further questions. I can easily show you, with similar verses in the Bible, that to which Peter is referring.

The Bible does not say Peter’s "thousand years" statement is about a timetable foretelling the years found in a dispensation of time. In context his statement is clearly speaking of the limited time span of a man's life, and reminding them that though they may think they have an eternity, because they are finite, they only have a short span of time in this life. To see this is true, first look at the context surrounding Peter’s statement about a day being a thousand years.

2 Peter 3:3-14
(3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
(4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
(5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
(6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.
(7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
(8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
(12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
(13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
(14) Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Peter does not say “one day with the Lord ‘is’ a thousand years,” but that “one day is with the Lord ‘as’ a thousand years.” Peter is borrowing from Moses’ statement about a day being a thousand years. Here is the context of Moses’ usage of this expression:

Psalms 90:1-10
(1) A Prayer of Moses the man of God. Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
(2) Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
(3) Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
(4) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
(5) Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.
(6) In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.
(7) For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled.
(8) Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.
(9) For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told.
(10) The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labor and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Neither of these “thousand years” passages is about the number of years found in each dispensation of time before the final “last days” arrive. Instead the context of these passages clearly shows God is telling mankind to think about the shortness and the frailty of their lifespan, and to thereby live accordingly. Or to say it more simply, God is saying, “Life is short! If you want to live in harmony with God in eternity, then you better start doing it while you still can in this life!”

Peter referred to Moses' words in effort to tell the men of that generation that they did not have forever to prepare for the coming prophesied judgment. Peter warned that same “untoward generation” to “save itself” from that same coming judgment (see Acts 2:40). And just as foretold, Jesus did bring fiery judgment against that generation in AD70.

Bro. Mark, you're doing what most people do during times like this; you are filtering what you read through what you already believe. If you were taught the world is flat, then you'd reject any teaching that says otherwise. If you were taught that there is three gods, then anything that says there is only one would be rejected by you as heretical. But if you really want to discover biblical Truth, you cannot use traditions, you must use only the Bible. That is what the Early Church did to prove all that was foretold about the Messiah was fulfilled in Jesus. The view of prophecy that I espouse is based on that same principle, for the New Testament can only be understood by first looking into what’s found in the Old Testament. When a person does that, they discover the Bible to be very simple to understand. We do not need the marginal notes found in Study Bibles to interpret biblical Truth; we just need 'the Word.' Such study is how many men and women have come into Apostolic Fulfilled Eschatology without ever reading a book or hearing a teaching on its position. It is also how I first saw it – I just read my Bible. This is the correct way to study. But it must be accompanied with an openness to leave behind any and all traditions and superstitions that are found contrary to God’s Truth.

I am still willing to answer whatever you may want to know. But for that to have any benefit, you have to do more than simply “skim” what is sent. Let’s be honest, it takes more than the few hours you’ve so far devoted to this subject to determine its validity. The Web link I sent you is nothing more than a brief overview. I have much more that goes into its depth. If you are sincere about wanting to understand this subject, let me know….

God bless your pursuit of His Truth,
Bro. TK Burk

[shag]

I agree TK.





And as you said...What exactly did Peter say to save yourselves from?


THIS UNTOWARD GENERATION.


It is a point worth consideration, WHY did Peter say to save ourselves from that particular "untoward generation". Most generally speed right over that part without consideration.

[jmarkoa]

Thank you TK, I do appreciate your patience with me.

First, Mike, this was quite funny! I like this site because of the good attitude, everyone can talk about their views and have fun at the same time!

Originally Posted by mfblume

I like this! lo Classic! A man asks about preterite views, not knowing the label "preterist", and someone else comes up and says, "Watch a flood of posts from preterists will come.

Sir, you are a prophet!

Also Mike, I still don't really understand the first part of what you believe, that part you share with the full preterist, the stuff that happened in 70AD, and where you draw the line as to where we are in the book of Revelation.

Plus, I have yet to see anyone talk about the scriptures in light of the actual historical event. I'm starting to get the impression that once you accept the time line, there is no need to understand how the event shed new light on the scriptures. Bur rather, the new thinking changes much of the literal events written in Revelation into symbolism and allegories. This is only my view of how I think you view much of Revelation. For some reason, I am just not quite getting it...

TK and Mike, I guess this whole question is really just way too big. There are so many things that we could talk about, so lets just try focusing on one small set of scriptures at a time. Hopefully this will help.

And, let me clear up something I probably said wrong about the time thing. I was referring to the thousand years in Revelation 20:2-5. Lets try to just focus on these four scriptures for a while. Do we all agree that this thousand years is a real time frame, because it is stated quite differently than that of Psalms 90:4, Ecclesiastes 6:6, and 2 Peter 3:8?

Do we also all agree that at the end of verse 4 where it says, "...they lived and reigned with Christ..." that this is a real life event? Where that we will be kings and priests with Christ, and be in a real physical form and sit down and eat together, just as the disciples ate together at the last supper?

Lets just start with this one event. Is it real and in the time frame mentioned?

Thanks guys for bearing with me,
Mark

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Thank you TK, I do appreciate your patience with me.

First, Mike, this was quite funny! I like this site because of the good attitude, everyone can talk about their views and have fun at the same time!



Also Mike, I still don't really understand the first part of what you believe, that part you share with the full preterist, the stuff that happened in 70AD, and where you draw the line as to where we are in the book of Revelation.

Plus, I have yet to see anyone talk about the scriptures in light of the actual historical event. I'm starting to get the impression that once you accept the time line, there is no need to understand how the event shed new light on the scriptures. Bur rather, the new thinking changes much of the literal events written in Revelation into symbolism and allegories. This is only my view of how I think you view much of Revelation. For some reason, I am just not quite getting it...

TK and Mike, I guess this whole question is really just way too big. There are so many things that we could talk about, so lets just try focusing on one small set of scriptures at a time. Hopefully this will help.

And, let me clear up something I probably said wrong about the time thing. I was referring to the thousand years in Revelation 20:2-5. Lets try to just focus on these four scriptures for a while. Do we all agree that this thousand years is a real time frame, because it is stated quite differently than that of Psalms 90:4, Ecclesiastes 6:6, and 2 Peter 3:8?

Do we also all agree that at the end of verse 4 where it says, "...they lived and reigned with Christ..." that this is a real life event? Where that we will be kings and priests with Christ, and be in a real physical form and sit down and eat together, just as the disciples ate together at the last supper?

Lets just start with this one event. Is it real and in the time frame mentioned?

Thanks guys for bearing with me,
Mark

Bro. Mark, since there are varying views, would you please explain what you believe about Revelation 20:2-5? That would help me know where we are in agreement. Thanks!

[jmarkoa]

TK,

I believe:

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

...this thousand years is a real time frame, because it is stated quite differently than that of Psalms 90:4, Ecclesiastes 6:6, and 2 Peter 3:8...

Also,

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

at the end of verse 4 where it says, "...they lived and reigned with Christ..." that this is a real life event...

And I believe other things, too, about these scriptures, but I am trying to narrow down some of the questions I have, to see if we have any common ground...

I know I still need to address some of the points you brought up, I am working on it...

Mark

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

TK,

I believe:

Also,

And I believe other things, too, about these scriptures, but I am trying to narrow down some of the questions I have, to see if we have any common ground...

I know I still need to address some of the points you brought up, I am working on it...

Mark

Since this thread was started about missing the rapture (?) let me throw in what I have been studing in the last couple of weeks.


9/29/2009

The second comming of the Lord
The Rapture
The Resurection


This subject has been the topic for discution for centerys. Even in the OT men debated whether there was a resurection of the dead or not.

Jesus pretty much put the resurection question to rest when he said "I am the resurection". Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Now the resurrection as seen in these verses deals with two realms, one who has died and the living.

Lazarus had died, he had been buried and in the tomb for four days. Now I have found that we cannot always take the exact wording and base a understanding on it but we must back it up with other examples found in the bible and even history if we can find it. But back to the passage, when Jesus came even when he was aways off Martha went out to meet him.
Note the first thing that was dealt with was whether Lazarus would have died at all if Jesus would have come sooner. Oh the thoughts that are going thru my mind when I think about how we Christians blame God when things go wrong. God if you would have done this when I ask such and such would not have happened. Oh well I will have to come back to that at another time.
Jesus reply to Martha was Lazarus shall rise agian. Her response was I know he will rise agian in the resurrection. This does let us know that there was comming a resurrection where the dead would rise to live eternaly with God. Jesus confirmes this in his teachings that the dead would rise.
Special note should be taken on Jesus answer to Martha, I am the resurrection and the life. Jesus deals with the dead that believe that shall live. Jesus does not stop there though, he continues to say whosoever that liveth and believes shall never die.

Here is where the argument comes into play. When does this happen? Most christians see this as a comming event yet to come. because of Pauls teachings. I Thess. 4:14-17, I Corinthians 15:51-52. Many have taken these passages to say and speak of a rapture to come as if the resurrection has not already happened. But in both of these passages the only thing I can truely see that happens is the dead in Christ shall be raised incoruptable. Remmember Jesus said whosoever beleives shall never die. So how does that work? We say we still die because this body dies. But Jesus said Lazarus was not dead he just slept. See we are wrapped up in this body but this is just our tabernacle we dwell in for a time on earth. Paul deals with this in I Corin. 15, we can argue the words soul, and spirit but the fact remains we are still an eternal being. But and I say BUT with capital letters our bodies of flesh and blood are not and never will be eternal. Even the writter of OT understood this. Ecc. 3:20, Ecc. 12:7

I remmember as a child seeing pictures of graves being opened at the rapture. and bodies of living souls flying in the air. This will not happen when we die our bodies that are buried will go into the ground and return to the dust from which God used to created us with. Therefore what will rise from death in the resurection will be that part of us that is eternal. This is the basis of most of the disagrement with one way of thinking over the other. Most Christians look for a raiseing of our dead bodies from the grave as Lazarus, this I don't beleive is what will happen.

So here is the way I see it, one of two things happen. All those that were dead OT saints when Christ rose on the third day were raised and are now in heaven. When we die our soul emmediatly goes to heaven and we are given a new body. In this way the dead rose first and then we which are alive and remain are caught up when this life is over to meet them in the air to forever be with the Lord. Or as is taught by most Christians there will come a time when Christ will call us home, then the dead will rise first then we shall be caught up.

I am personaly leaning towards the idea that the OT saints were raised when Christ rose. And that when we die we go straight to be with the Lord. The resurrection as has been defined by most Christians is not as scripture shows it. First Jesus said "I am the resurrection and life" As long as God is working in the world thru Christ the resurrection is not past. How else can you explain Christ words in John 11:26, he that beleiveth in me shall never die. Does this mean this body will not die? No this body will die but the eternal part of man will live on with Christ.

[TK Burk]

I posted these back in January. I hope they help clarify this issue....

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Here is a copy of a study I recently taught to our church family.



Asleep in the Grave, Awakened to Everlasting Life

The resurrection of the dead gives hope to the Christian. Yet when asked how it takes place and in what manner it will occur, many of these same saints may feel hopeless to explain. Understanding the time and nature of the resurrection will affect how you view God’s Word. That is why it’s of paramount importance that every child of God has a clear understanding of what the Bible says about this subject.

When we look in our Bible we see the promise of never seeing “the grave” or “death” is aligned with a believer being “transformed” from their body in a “spiritual resurrection.” This is the difference between reanimation of flesh and transformation from flesh. But before the resurrection came into fruition, deceased saints are described in the Bible as being in a state of “sleep” (See Deu 31:16; 1Ki 1:21; Acts 13:36; 1Co 15:51; 1Th 4:14). Daniel spoke of this…

Daniel 12:2
And MANY OF THEM THAT SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel placed those in the grave in a place of rest while waiting for the prophesied time when they would awaken to eternal life. Concerning “dust,” the Bible says that a dead body returns to the same substance from which it was made.

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-21
I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Job 34:14-15
If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Psalms 90:3 KJV
Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

Look at this same verse in Psalms is translated in the English Standard Version.

Psalms 90:3 ESV
You return man to dust and say, "Return, O children of man!"

Psalms 104:29-30
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Psalms 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

The timeframe Daniel placed for those sleeping to awake to everlasting life is found in the following verse:

Daniel 12:7
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and swore by him that liveth forever that IT SHALL BE FOR A TIME, TIMES, AND A HALF; and when he shall have accomplished TO SCATTER THE POWER OF THE HOLY PEOPLE, all these things shall be finished.

"Time, times, and a half" is prophetic language for “1-year,” “2-years,” and “½ year,” which equates to 3½ years, 42 months, or 1260 days. Each of these times is used in the Bible to refer to the 3½ year AD70 siege and destruction of Jerusalem and her Temple. The Temple was burnt August 10, AD70 (the Jewish Ninth of Av), the exact day and month on which it had been burnt by the king of Babylon many years before.

Part 1 of 2

[TK Burk]

Here's the remainder....

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Part 2 of 2

THE NEW COVENANT AND THE RESURRECTION

The faithful who had died prior to this "Great Tribulation" were resurrected from their graves in AD70 to go and live forever in the presence of their Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Daniel 12:1-3
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was [Compare with Matthew 24:21] since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life [resurrection and blessings], and some to shame and everlasting contempt [judgment and curses]. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever.

Paul spoke of this time in the following verses:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel ["at that time shall Michael stand up” – Dan 12:1], and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Jesus said this was to occur during the AD70 judgment of Jerusalem.

Matthew 13:41-43
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. THEN SHALL THE RIGHTEOUS SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN [The “sun is the ‘SON,’ Jesus Christ – See Rev 21:22-24] in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

This collates with Daniel’s statement…

Daniel 12:3
And they that be wise SHALL SHINE AS THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE FIRMAMENT; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever.

Paul indicated that those awake during that time will receive the same promise of eternal life.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul's promise is the same as that which Jesus made to Martha.

John 11:26
Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

Those who were alive after AD70 were given the same hope of eternal life only with a more powerful promise—they would never experience the grave or death!

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should NOT PERISH, but HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

"Perish" means "death," and "everlasting life" means "continuing without end, immortal." Jesus literally died so that His followers would never see death, but would instead pass from this world into life eternal. A physical resurrection would not allow this promise to be true today, but a spiritual resurrection would, and a spiritual resurrection is what we find promised in the Bible. This was the inspiration for the words of the old Christian hymn, Sweet Hour: “Upon leaving our physical robe of flesh behind, we do spiritually enter that perfect land—Beulah Land—the eternal home of the righteous—the city whose builder and maker is God!” – Sweet Hour, William B. Bradbury, 1861

The thing that made Nicodemus take notice was that he knew Jesus’ talk of a birth of the "Spirit," was prophesied to take place during the time of the Messiah. He knew the Torah said this time would happen during the last days of the Jewish age (See John 3; Isa 61:1-2; Eze 11:17-21, 36:25-27; Joel 2:28-32; Acts 2:16-21). These “last days” were the same days as those prophesied by Daniel. He foretold that they would conclude with the resurrection of the dead. Since Daniel spoke of the destruction of AD70, and since those days are now past, then the resurrection he spoke of has occurred. This means that when a man or woman, who’s been Born Again in Jesus' name, breathes their last breathe in this life, they are translated from their flesh body, and instantly go into the eternal kingdom of the Lord God. This was the promise of Jesus; that His believers would never see the grave or death.

Paul spoke of this promise in the next verses.

Romans 6:3-11
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, WE SHALL BE ALSO IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS RESURRECTION: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. NOW IF WE BE DEAD WITH CHRIST, WE BELIEVE THAT WE SHALL ALSO LIVE WITH HIM: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; DEATH HATH NO MORE DOMINION OVER HIM. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. LIKEWISE RECKON YE ALSO YOURSELVES TO BE DEAD INDEED UNTO SIN, BUT ALIVE UNTO GOD THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.

2 Timothy 2:11
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him.

Peter gave witness to this same promise in his first Epistle.

1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The New Testament mentions this same promise of a ‘new spiritual life’ and ‘everlasting life’ in these verses such as: John 3:15-18, 4:14, 5:24, 6:50, 6:54-58, 8:51-53, 10:28; Romans 8:13; 1John 5:10-12.

A believer in Jesus cannot die. For them, “death” is a doorway through which they enter into eternity.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY, and to be PRESENT WITH THE LORD.

1 Corinthians 15:50-57
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The last trump sounded at AD70 when the “holy people's strength” was “scattered” (Daniel 12:7). This occurred during the same Jewish generation that crucified Jesus, saw the armies of Titus make their house (The Jewish Temple) desolate, and also scattered their survivors throughout the known world of their day (See Dan 12:7; Mat 23:37-38, 24:1-2; Luke 21:6, 20; Zec 13:6-9 / See “This Generation” Mat 24:34; Mark 13:30-31; Luke 21:32-33 / See “These Things” Mat 24:6; Mark 13:29; Luke 21:31). This then means that the resurrection of those asleep in the grave has already taken place, and now, when a saint of God dies, they leave their earthly body and are instantly translated to the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ, where they will remain for eternity.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Thank you TK, I do appreciate your patience with me.

First, Mike, this was quite funny! I like this site because of the good attitude, everyone can talk about their views and have fun at the same time!

Amen!

Also Mike, I still don't really understand the first part of what you believe, that part you share with the full preterist, the stuff that happened in 70AD, and where you draw the line as to where we are in the book of Revelation.

It's actually all on my site. But I believe we're at the point in time that is partway through Rev 20 before the white throne. Full preterists believe all of Rev is fulfilled. So where I differ with full preterism is that I believe there is a future physical resurrection and that Jesus will physically and visibly return again. They do not believe that. I believe satan will be banished from the earth along with sin and anyone who is a sinner. They do not believe that.

Plus, I have yet to see anyone talk about the scriptures in light of the actual historical event. I'm starting to get the impression that once you accept the time line, there is no need to understand how the event shed new light on the scriptures. Bur rather, the new thinking changes much of the literal events written in Revelation into symbolism and allegories. This is only my view of how I think you view much of Revelation. For some reason, I am just not quite getting it...

Actually, look at it this way. Revelation is so full of symbolism and it does not interpret so much of the symbols, that we have to realize it can only be saying this: It is a symbolic picture of everything the Lord and apostles taught about. There is nothing in revelation that is not taught somewhere else in plain manner in the rest of the bible. If we start to take visions and interpret them in ways the apostles and the Lord never taught anything about, we are in error.

That being said, I really believe the view I have taken is the correct one.

TK and Mike, I guess this whole question is really just way too big. There are so many things that we could talk about, so lets just try focusing on one small set of scriptures at a time. Hopefully this will help.

And, let me clear up something I probably said wrong about the time thing. I was referring to the thousand years in Revelation 20:2-5. Lets try to just focus on these four scriptures for a while. Do we all agree that this thousand years is a real time frame, because it is stated quite differently than that of Psalms 90:4, Ecclesiastes 6:6, and 2 Peter 3:8?

Do we also all agree that at the end of verse 4 where it says, "...they lived and reigned with Christ..." that this is a real life event? Where that we will be kings and priests with Christ, and be in a real physical form and sit down and eat together, just as the disciples ate together at the last supper?

I believe the only thrones we will sit on are spiritual and we are on them now. Some folks do not believe anything is real unless it is physical. But Eph 2:5-6 says we are seated with Christ now on the throne. The Kingdom is now. It is not physical. Never will be.

Mike!