Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People

[KWSS1976]

Which baptism water or holyghost in romans 6:4?

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

Which baptism water or holyghost in romans 6:4?

Water! Every scholar even those that are a bit touched believe that it is water.

[SDG]

Grace Church of Humble gives thousands to Mike Barber Ministries that has impacted the lives of scores of prisoners with the Gospel of Jesus Christ ....

Mike is a former football player ...

http://www.mikebarber.org/main/about

[SDG]

I mean as a whole, as a people regardless of what they are wearing, are Jesus name people different

Jesus name people are who Liz? An AG person w/ the Holy Ghost has a different "person" dwelling in them ... not Jesus? Not Christ's Spirit?

Paul 2 chapters later, in Chapter 8 of Romans, has a wealth to say about the Spirit-filled believer being a new creature.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

[deltaguitar]

I want to get into this thread so bad but I just don't have the time. Maybe I can post tonight.

[KWSS1976]

Come on in delta

[Pastor Keith]

For someone to have a proper and normative birth experience a number of things need to happen, repentance, faith, baptism and the Spirit.

Each of those things are significant and bring about transformation in some degree, so we do never want to undermine or play down the significance of what happens in each part or experience. Our role as spiritual midwifes is to help people have the greatest and healthiest birth experience that they can have.

Repentance and Faith towards God isn't regeneration, Justification by God doesn't happen at the reception of the spirit, Union with Christ only happens at baptism, etc. That is why it is so vital that we get every part.

The reason why people have such significant change at each of those parts in that in and of themselves alone they are powerful encounters that will change any life.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Pastor Keith

For someone to have a proper and normative birth experience a number of things need to happen, repentance, faith, baptism and the Spirit.

Each of those things are significant and bring about transformation in some degree, so we do never want to undermine or play down the significance of what happens in each part or experience. Our role as spiritual midwifes is to help people have the greatest and healthiest birth experience that they can have.

Repentance and Faith towards God isn't regeneration, Justification by God doesn't happen at the reception of the spirit, Union with Christ only happens at baptism, etc. That is why it is so vital that we get every part.

The reason why people have such significant change at each of those parts in that in and of themselves alone they are powerful encounters that will change any life.

Obviously, Keith you have retained the Water and Spirit message ... even now ... which I believes still hinders your view of the entire Body of Christ ...

After reading your statement I can only infer that somehow only those who have gone through the birth process properly are the MOST HEALTHY... the others are spiritually defective?

Are you suggesting a person filled with the baptism of the Holy Spirit ... but has not been "unified w/ Christ" through a properly administered baptism, is not dressed with all of Christ????

I am all for making a parallel with natural birth when we speak of our spiritual birth ... Christ did ....but since when is the baby the catalyst ...? Where does God call us mid-wives?

Max Lucado makes a great point when he says:

Born again. Birth, by definition, is a passive act. The enwombed child contributes nothing to the delivery. Postpartum celebrations applaud the work of the mother. No one lionizes the infant. (“Great work there, little one.”) No, give the tyke a pacifier not a medal. Mom deserves the gold. She exerts the effort. She pushes, agonizes, and delivers.

When my niece bore her first child, she invited her brother and mother to stand in the delivery room. After witnessing three hours of pushing, when the baby finally crowned, my nephew turned to his mom and said, “I’m sorry for every time I talked back to you.”

The mother pays the price of birth. She doesn’t enlist the child’s assistance or solicit his or her advice. Why would she? The baby can’t even take a breath without umbilical help, much less navigate a path into new life. Nor, Jesus is saying, can we. Spiritual rebirthing requires a capable parent, not an able infant.



Who is this parent? Check the strategically selected word again. The Greek language offers two choices for again:

• 1. Palin, which means a repetition of an act; to redo what was done earlier

• 2. Anothen, which also depicts a repeated action, but requires the original source to repeat it. It means “from above, from a higher place, things which come from heaven or God.” In other words, the one who did the work the first time does it again. This is the word Jesus chose.

The difference between the two terms is the difference between a painting by da Vinci and one by me. Suppose you and I are standing in the Louvre, admiring the famous Mona Lisa. Inspired by the work, I produce an easel and canvas and announce, “I’m going to paint this beautiful portrait again.”

And I do! Right there in the Salle des Etats, I brandish my palette and flurry my brush and re-create the Mona Lisa. Alas, Lucado is no Leonardo. Ms. Lisa has a Picassoesque imbalance to her—crooked nose and one eye higher than the other. Technically, however, I keep my pledge and paint the Mona Lisa again.


Jesus means something else. He employs the second Greek term, calling for the action of the original source. He uses the word anothen, which, if honored in the Paris gallery, would require da Vinci’s presence. Anothen excludes:

• Latter-day replicas.

• Second-generation attempts.

• Well-meaning imitations.

He who did it first must do it again. The original creator recreates his creation. This is the act that Jesus describes.

• Born: God exerts the effort.

• Again: God restores the beauty.

We don’t try again. We need, not the muscle of self, but a miracle of God.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Obviously, Keith you have retained the Water and Spirit message ... even now ... which I believes still hinders your view of the entire Body of Christ ...

After reading your statement I can only infer that somehow only those who have gone through the birth process properly are the MOST HEALTHY...

Are you suggesting a person filled with the baptism of the Holy Spirit ... but has not been "unified w/ Christ" through a properly administered baptism, is not dressed with all of Christ????

I am all for making a parallel with natural birth when we speak of our spiritual birth ... Christ did ....but since when is the baby the catalyst ...? Where does God call us mid-wives?

Max Lucado makes a great point when he says:

Born again. Birth, by definition, is a passive act. The enwombed child contributes nothing to the delivery. Postpartum celebrations applaud the work of the mother. No one lionizes the infant. (“Great work there, little one.”) No, give the tyke a pacifier not a medal. Mom deserves the gold. She exerts the effort. She pushes, agonizes, and delivers.

When my niece bore her first child, she invited her brother and mother to stand in the delivery room. After witnessing three hours of pushing, when the baby finally crowned, my nephew turned to his mom and said, “I’m sorry for every time I talked back to you.”

The mother pays the price of birth. She doesn’t enlist the child’s assistance or solicit his or her advice. Why would she? The baby can’t even take a breath without umbilical help, much less navigate a path into new life. Nor, Jesus is saying, can we. Spiritual rebirthing requires a capable parent, not an able infant.


Who is this parent? Check the strategically selected word again. The Greek language offers two choices for again:

• 1. Palin, which means a repetition of an act; to redo what was done earlier

• 2. Anothen, which also depicts a repeated action, but requires the original source to repeat it. It means “from above, from a higher place, things which come from heaven or God.” In other words, the one who did the work the first time does it again. This is the word Jesus chose.

The difference between the two terms is the difference between a painting by da Vinci and one by me. Suppose you and I are standing in the Louvre, admiring the famous Mona Lisa. Inspired by the work, I produce an easel and canvas and announce, “I’m going to paint this beautiful portrait again.”

And I do! Right there in the Salle des Etats, I brandish my palette and flurry my brush and re-create the Mona Lisa. Alas, Lucado is no Leonardo. Ms. Lisa has a Picassoesque imbalance to her—crooked nose and one eye higher than the other. Technically, however, I keep my pledge and paint the Mona Lisa again.

Jesus means something else. He employs the second Greek term, calling for the action of the original source. He uses the word anothen, which, if honored in the Paris gallery, would require da Vinci’s presence. Anothen excludes:

• Latter-day replicas.

• Second-generation attempts.

• Well-meaning imitations.

He who did it first must do it again. The original creator recreates his creation. This is the act that Jesus describes.

• Born: God exerts the effort.

• Again: God restores the beauty.

We don’t try again. We need, not the muscle of self, but a miracle of God.

Surely you don't believe that I adhere to full salvation or the New Birth to be a product or fruit of our efforts.

There is conception, there is delievery there is evidence of birth. I know I was there for all 3 events in my son's life. Any analogy breaks down at some point, but it is clear that we must recapture Biblical language and refute unbiblical language etc. Sinners prayer, decision for Christ are unbiblical words and have no place in this intiation. Repentance (to think again), faith (trust that leads to obedience) baptism (immersion in water) and the reception of the life of the Spirit is the biblical language, for that I commit myself to and that I try and teach.

I don't undermine what God has done in other denoms, I don't believe it to be a all or nothing sum game.

I validate and appreciate those powerful encounters that those with a lesser experience have had, all I know is that whenever the Apostle encountered someone or someone who had some faith experience there was a inquiry to see what their experience was, and if there was something lacking then that was addressed.

I also don't address who is or isn't in the body of Christ. I just know there to be a normative intiation, that is what I contend for. I don't want to be an apologist for those who seek something else.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Pastor Keith

Repentance (to TURN again), faith (trust that leads to obedience) baptism (immersion in water) and the reception of the life of the Spirit is the biblical language, for that I commit myself to and that I try and teach.
.

Most of Christianity agrees with you, Keith ... it's the assertion being made that somehow there is a spiritual defectiveness if it doesn't look the way we interpret Scripture .....in the life of a BLOOD-BOUGHT, SPRIRIT FILLED, SON OF GOD.

Born of God ... means just that ... born of Him. It's not inferior from one believer to another.

This is how you and Liz are articulating it ... initially.