Baptism from God's Perspective - Page 4

Steve Epley · #31 06-10-2009, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

It only clears up where your theology is, but that was not difficult to figure out

Thank you that was the purpose for the post just in case someone was in doubt.
"All Trinitarians are lost" remember that thread?

LUKE2447 · #32 06-10-2009, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

So jesus does not remit your sins at repentence

Are you in the body at repentance? No! Have you been united with is death at repentance? No! Thus your answer is no! Repentance brings you to the place of the alter "then you can offer your gift/yourself"!

LUKE2447 · #33 06-10-2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

If an individual called out to Jesus which is repenting asking for fogivness why do we need water the water does not physically remove sin Jesus does

uh maybe to be united in his death/blood/sacrifice. In which I have explained to you before!

KWSS1976 · #34 06-10-2009, 03:58 PM

His blood was the gift........Not you.... and yes you are in his body at Repentence because you are forgiven when you repent....

LUKE2447 · #35 06-10-2009, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

His blood was the gift........Not you.... and yes you are in his body at Repentence because you are forgiven when you repent....

So you don't offer yourself to be united with him? Seriously you need to read his Word! By you turning to him through repentance unto baptism you are offering yourself as his servant pledging loyalty to him. Thus you bring yourself to his "offering" of which he has promised to be united with him in his sacrifice! Understand Romans 6 and

Mat 5:23 So then, if you bring your gift to the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother and then come and present your gift.

This is the law of atonement! Your must first turn in pureness of heart before you can offer yourself to God in baptism/sacrifice to be united with him in HIS DEATH. You are united in HIS sacrifice/death!

U376977 · #36 06-10-2009, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

NOT ONE person since Pentecost has recieved remission of sins without being immersed in Jesus Name. I hope that clears everything up.

Bro Steve. Please reconcile your statement above with this verse.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Seems to me that Peter clearly states that baptism does NOT SAVE FROM THE FILTH OF THE FLESH, but only allows for a "good conscience toward God."

I have known people baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ, in the "Father, Son and Holy Ghost, the name of Jesus Christ" etc.

These seemly, by our preaching, have the name and are "on the road to heaven waiting for the rapture" but yet many have no victory in their life and continue to live in their sin. If there is no salvation in their heart, the water does no good at all.

I contend that even "saved" "baptized" "holy Ghost filled" "saints" who do not change but continue to live in their sin are still not going into the kingdom of God. Living clean and holy would seem to be a fruit of our salvation. My point being that the "water" and "when the blood is applied" argument is fruitless without carrying it to the end, personal holiness. ?? So just to say that if one is baptized in Jesus' name they are save is not the complete picture.

Agree?

Steve Epley · #37 06-10-2009, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by U376977

Bro Steve. Please reconcile your statement above with this verse. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Seems to me that Peter clearly states that baptism does NOT SAVE FROM THE FILTH OF THE FLESH, but only allows for a "good conscience toward God." I have known people baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ, in the "Father, Son and Holy Ghost, the name of Jesus Christ" etc. These seemly, by our preaching, have the name and are "on the road to heaven waiting for the rapture" but yet many have no victory in their life and continue to live in their sin. If there is no salvation in their heart, the water does no good at all... I contend that even "saved" "baptized" "holy Ghost filled" "saints" who do not change but continue to live in their sin are still not going into the kingdom of God. Living clean and holy would seem to be a fruit of our salvation. My point being that the "water" and "when the blood is applied" argument is fruitless without carrying it to the end, personal holiness. ?? So just to say that if one is baptized in Jesus' name they are save is not the complete picture. Agree?

Note:
Peter clearly states "Baptism doth now save us!"

No it is not a ceremonial washing to the cleansing of the flesh but it IS AN ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE toward God. Baptism in Jesus Name remits sins thus clears the conscience of all wrong doing.

gloryseeker · #38 06-10-2009, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

So you don't offer yourself to be united with him? Seriously you need to read his Word! By you turning to him through repentance unto baptism you are offering yourself as his servant pledging loyalty to him. Thus you bring yourself to his "offering" of which he has promised to be united with him in his sacrifice! Understand Romans 6 and

Mat 5:23 So then, if you bring your gift to the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother and then come and present your gift.

This is the law of atonement! Your must first turn in pureness of heart before you can offer yourself to God in baptism/sacrifice to be united with him in HIS DEATH. You are united in HIS sacrifice/death!

Your passage in Matthew has nothing to do with baptism, but your relationship with others.

Atonement has nothing to do with the New Testament. In fact the word is only used like one time in the New Testament and is a poor translation of the original word.

To say that Jesus blood "atoned" for the sins of man is to reduce the blood of Jesus to blood of bulls and goats. Jesus' blood remitted our sins not covered them.

gloryseeker · #39 06-10-2009, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

I had a provocative thought while sitting here contemplating this thread.

We would all agree that it wouldn’t matter if an individual had 100 Apostolic ministers screaming the proper Jesus name “formula” over them at their water baptism if that person wasn’t individually calling upon the name of Jesus to wash away his or her sins.

With that in mind let me ask this question…

If an individual had 100 Trinitarian ministers screaming the Trinitarian “formula” over them at their water baptism, yet they as an individual cried out to the name of Jesus to wash away their sins, is it of no effect?

Your illustration reminded me of a story I read today...it's off topic other than it deals with baptism.

The article was about the church in China and the need for solid teaching. Anyway, a lady read were Jesus was baptized and the Holy Spirit was seen like a dove coming down from heaven. As a believer she felt the need to be baptized, however when she didn't see the dove she kept getting baptized over and over again and eventually drowned.

I wonder if she went to heaven

U376977 · #40 06-10-2009, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Note:
Peter clearly states "Baptism doth now save us!"

No it is not a ceremonial washing to the cleansing of the flesh but it IS AN ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE toward God. Baptism in Jesus Name remits sins thus clears the conscience of all wrong doing.

He does clearly state "Baptism doth now save us" but the parenthetical statement that follows clarifies the original statement, "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh". To me that is very plain. Baptism has nothing to do with the cleansing of the flesh nor does it remit sins. It is, however, the proper response of one who has been cleansed and demonstrates that they have a clear conscience toward God.

Though I do not agree with you on this one point (baptism)....I highly respect you...and appreciate your posts and your stand for the truth (the Oneness of God and Deity of Jesus Christ).

I was actually more interested in your perspective on people who seem to follow the repentance, baptism, and filled with the Holy Ghost, steps. And yet do not continue in holiness; they go back to a woman or man, drugs and drinking etc. Not to mention the ones in our churches who look the part but inside are full of gossip, hatred, and a brother killing spirit of Cain. A minister recently made the case to me that Apostolic people have more adultery, fornication, incest, and homosexuality than any other denomination. That may or may not be true. But I still do not understand how a people who claim to have THE ONLY WAY OF SALVATION have so many who continue to live unholy, ungodly, and defeated lives; why is not our salvation more effective on our people if it is the ONLY WAY?