Read the Seagraves Document....

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I believe Jesus drank alcoholic wine. I hate the stuff, myself. But anyway, I am unaware of the technique of making wine, but would not wine already be fermented if it was alcoholic?

Hey Mike! Right on!

Yet, we are also talking about a process here, not a discrete event.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I believe Jesus drank alcoholic wine. I hate the stuff, myself. But anyway, I am unaware of the technique of making wine, but would not wine already be fermented if it was alcoholic?

There is a "magical" process that takes place as wine ferments. I say "magical" because that is how most ancient cultures considered it. The juice of the grapes appears to "come alive" as it bubbles and foams. It would just do this "on its own" and so, many different cults and magical ceremonies developed around the phenomena.

Wine was often allowed to ferment in open basins around the time of the harvest. "New wine" was wine that was still "alive" and subject to the frothy bubbling. Even plain old grape juice has some alcohol content, unless it has been pasteurized and sealed in a modern canning process.

[Jack Shephard]

Is the paper that is being talked about here the one about Letting Your Hair down or something?

[Justin]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I see that someone said that there is a link somewhere for this paper. If it found can it be reposted in here?

NO debating we are saved by faith alone, but is he saying that he has more of a one-stepper mindset? Sam have you read the paper?

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Is the paper that is being talked about here the one about Letting Your Hair down or something?

Here is the link where the document can be found.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Is the paper that is being talked about here the one about Letting Your Hair down or something?

Try the link on this post by Sam:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...79&postcount=6

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Justin

Here is the link where the document can be found.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Try the link on this post by Sam:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...79&postcount=6

Thanks peeps! Justin have I met you before? U look familiar....

[TheLegalist]

Would you like to draw a parallel here for the New Testament church? Acts 2:39 states, "For the PROMISE is unto you, and to your children and all those that are afar off...."

So within the context do you obtain the promise of Acts 2:38 by simple "God I believe what Peter said was true?" How do you obtain the promise by covenant within the context? What does Acts 2:38 say concerning promise to obtain? cf similar aspects at Gen 15:7-10. Did belief as in "God I believe what you said" in Gen 15:6 give him the right to obtain the land? Mental assent obtains nothing! That is the problem with how many people place Gen 15:6 context. Abraham obtains no covenant of his seed until Gen 22. He only obtains covenant unto obtaining the land until he does what God asks by faith to obtain.

God swears in Gen 22 a covenant...

Gen 22:16 and said, "By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,
Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."

He didn't obtain anything toward the multiplying his offspring until then. At that point God swears and oath. He had obtained a land promise by his leaving in Gen 12 and completed by his action in Gen 15 when asked how to obtain right to it. Which was a benefit to his offspring but not the blessing of multiplication of them unto all nations being blessed.

Notice covenant is still in view even here...

ESV
Gen 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless,
Gen 17:2 that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly."
Gen 17:3 Then Abram fell on his face. And God said to him,
Gen 17:4 "Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. (this would be like a reference to terms of agreement thus behold my covenant is WITH YOU)
Gen 17:5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.
Gen 17:8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God."
Gen 17:9 And God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant,(terms and conditions to obtain the covenant of Gen 22 which is progressive coventry) which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.

Notice he had to WALK before God could make covenant. Thus God is laying out terms and conditions to obtain. Thus abraham is judged to obtain rights to receive. Condition and terms of agreement are seen here but covenant is not finalized and closed until the condition are met. Which you see later which again is the point f Gen 15:6 of believed within view from Gen 15:7-10 to Gen 17 to Gen 22. Which God confirms Abrahams faith to obtain to Isaac in Gen 26 that Abraham was considered "just" at heart.... because he "believed". Which is a continous form not a "point" in time thus "followed" God.


Gen 26:4 I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,
Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Simple belief obtained nothing of the promise if that is what you think it is in Gen 15:6. Whether you think he was justified by mental assent or not at Gen 15:6 he obtained nothing of promise by mental assent. He obtained by obedience. Which CORRECTLY is the whole in view of "believed" in Gen 15:6. Standing before God is not ALL directed through circumcision which is partly Paul's point. Abraham was considered just before circumcision by the narrators view of Abraham's response in Gen 15 which is seen and follows verse 6 until completion in Gen 22.

I think you should read his article, along with your Bible.

He really is not saying anything that has not been said already from different points of view.

abraham's life of obtaining is clearly seen in

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. KJV

Same reason God gave Isaac why he realized the promise given Abraham.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

So within the context do you obtain the promise of Acts 2:38 by simple "God I believe what Peter said was true?" How do you obtain the promise by covenant within the context? What does Acts 2:38 say concerning promise to obtain? cf similar aspects at Gen 15:7-10. Did belief as in "God I believe what you said" in Gen 15:6 give him the right to obtain the land? Mental assent obtains nothing! That is the problem with how many people place Gen 15:6 context. Abraham obtains no covenant of his seed until Gen 22. He only obtains covenant unto obtaining the land until he does what God asks by faith to obtain.

God swears in Gen 22 a covenant...

Gen 22:16 and said, "By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,
Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."

He didn't obtain anything toward the multiplying his offspring until then. At that point God swears and oath. He had obtained a land promise by his leaving in Gen 12 and completed by his action in Gen 15 when asked how to obtain right to it. Which was a benefit to his offspring but not the blessing of multiplication of them unto all nations being blessed.

Notice covenant is still in view even here...

ESV
Gen 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless,
Gen 17:2 that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly."
Gen 17:3 Then Abram fell on his face. And God said to him,
Gen 17:4 "Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. (this would be like a reference to terms of agreement thus behold my covenant is WITH YOU)
Gen 17:5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.
Gen 17:8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God."
Gen 17:9 And God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant,(terms and conditions to obtain the covenant of Gen 22 which is progressive coventry) which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.

Notice he had to WALK before God could make covenant. Thus God is laying out terms and conditions to obtain. Thus abraham is judged to obtain rights to receive. Condition and terms of agreement are seen here but covenant is not finalized and closed until the condition are met. Which you see later which again is the point f Gen 15:6 of believed within view from Gen 15:7-10 to Gen 17 to Gen 22. Which God confirms Abrahams faith to obtain to Isaac in Gen 26 that Abraham was considered "just" at heart.... because he "believed". Which is a continous form not a "point" in time thus "followed" God.


Gen 26:4 I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,
Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Simple belief obtained nothing of the promise if that is what you think it is in Gen 15:6. Whether you think he was justified by mental assent or not at Gen 15:6 he obtained nothing of promise by mental assent. He obtained by obedience. Which CORRECTLY is the whole in view of "believed" in Gen 15:6. Standing before God is not ALL directed through circumcision which is partly Paul's point. Abraham was considered just before circumcision by the narrators view of Abraham's response in Gen 15 which is seen and follows verse 6 until completion in Gen 22.



He really is not saying anything that has not been said already from different points of view.

abraham's life of obtaining is clearly seen in

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. KJV

Same reason God gave Isaac why he realized the promise given Abraham.

I will carefully read everything you have posted in your last 2 posts and will respond later, using the scriptures, context of the scriptures, and Seagraves' paper.

[A.W. Bowman]

A most excellent discussion. Thanks for making the Segraves paper available.

Yet, I think there remains some element of confusion over terms, which I hope the attached word document might assist in clearing up.

There are five theological/doctrinal terms that seem to give most everyone some degree of difficulty, primarily because they contain some shared elements of meaning and application. Those words are: Justification, Sanctification, Salvation, Redemption, and Regeneration.

In order to provide a solid foundation for the understanding of these terms, I went back to a classic Christian source, Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary. Also included are references to more modern special and general dictionary definitions for comparison studies. While there may be small alterations in the religious definitions over the intervening years, according to changes in the theologies of various religious movements, using this source provides a coherent and integrated base for exploring those differences. Where no differences are present, then the cited source fulfills its purpose in providing the required language foundation from which to continue a meaningful discussion.

----------------------

Hmmm - it seams that my proposed attachment exceeded the forum limits by some large amount. So, I will post as 'follow-on replies.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

...
In order to provide a solid foundation for the understanding of these terms, I went back to a classic Christian source, Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary.
...

Going back to 1897 presents a problem.
The three-step doctrine as believed by many in the UPC doesn't go back that far. It was not believed or taught by the first century apostles. It was taught in a form by the Roman Catholic Church as baptismal regeneration. It was not taught by those who called themselves Apostolic in the first few decades of the 1900's. It is a later concept that has been developed among some Apostolics or Pentecostals but not agreed to by many of the leadership when the UPC was formed.