The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end?

[Hoovie]

When in Rome...

The Lutherans receive forgiveness of sin through confession, calling on the Lord, and communion...

The Baptists confess sin, believe on the Lord...

Pentecostals shockamoo, shout the name of Jesus and speak in tongues...

Do as the Romans do. It always helps to know a bit about the faith traditions you are associating with.

[MrsMcD]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

It's ok sister, this is a common misconception of those who are raised Pentecostal.

LOL - you are right! I should have use the words "speaking in tongues" instead of "Holy Ghost."

[Maximilian]

So it sounds like many believe in using emotional devices, scare tactics and fear to draw people to Christ, not trusting in the Gospel alone, the work of the Spirit in this area. That bothers me. When we do that, we are saying we are the Messiah. We put that responsibility in our hands, not trusting the Story and the Spirit. It is quite difficult NOT to see this as manipulation --- working over someone's emotions so at the end of it, they draw a conclusion you want.

I suspect Pentecost is oozing with this sort of trickery.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

StuffApostolicsLike posted a new humorous topic on the altar call which took a tangent point into scare tactics being used at the altar appeal. One poster said this:

****If emotionalism works to get some people to lower their defenses and have honest conversations with God in the altar/pew/car/wherever, then I suppose it isn't in my place or anyone else's to criticize it too heavily---that is, until it becomes institutionalized as the only means by which one can have an experience and, further, that that experience, and not the overall orientation toward God, is sought after as an ends. Then there is a problem.*****

This sums up perfectly how I feel.

Whatever works. Compel them. Scare them. Love them. Woo them. Shame them. Guilt them. Whatever it takes. Hell is real. Jesus is God. He is worthy of our utter and complete surrender. Period. Jesus knows how to twist our arms and speak our language. Its His specialty to (seemingly) hurt and skeer us into obedience. Ask Jonah, David, Peter and Paul.


Interesting discussion thus far.
http://stuffapostolicslike.blogspot.....html#comments

I tend to agree with your assessment and that poster's thoughts... however:

Can one be truly said to be having an "honest conversation(s) with God" just because they were duped into "lowering their defenses?"

I seems to me that this process will simply lead to problems later, like the cited issue concerning one's "orientation" toward God. It's best to build on a firm foundation, IMHO. This will certainly involve the emotions of the seeker and all concerned, but the emotions are not the goal.

[Jeffrey]

Pel, I see an importance of involving the whole person in the Gospel: mind, emotions, etc. But to purposefully set out to let fear take souls hostage seems counter to the Good News and "perfect love" of Jesus.

[Maximilian]

Pel, some believe that the ends justify the means. This is how they use emotional encounters to keep people from leaving their church? While the prayer is going "God wants you to stay right where you've been planted." etc...

It turns loose this notion that anything that accomplishes a worthy result is itself worthy. Not safe IMO.

I experienced it first-hand. Realizing things I didn't agree with, I was emotionally manipulated, my intimate time with God hijacked by the stale breath of a human trying to turn someone's will back toward their own end. Of course believing that their end is God's end.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by MrsMcD

It's a big church and there are a lot of tongue talkers in the church but as far as speaking in tongues, the pastor has said why does he need something, Jesus didn't need.

I suppose that means that he doesn't preach repentance either.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

So it sounds like many believe in using emotional devices, scare tactics and fear to draw people to Christ, not trusting in the Gospel alone, the work of the Spirit in this area. That bothers me. When we do that, we are saying we are the Messiah. We put that responsibility in our hands, not trusting the Story and the Spirit. It is quite difficult NOT to see this as manipulation --- working over someone's emotions so at the end of it, they draw a conclusion you want.

I suspect Pentecost is oozing with this sort of trickery.

What did the Apostles teach/preach? Did they just get up and say "Jesus died for your sins, come if you want to?"

It depends on the crowd and who is listening. As the way of the Master puts it, grace to the humble and law to the proud. Yes, we are actually told to warn them of the judgment to come

Col 1:28 whom we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, so that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.
Col 1:29 For which I also labor, striving according to the working of Him who works in me in power.

1Co 10:11 And all these things happened to them as examples; and it is written for our warning on whom the ends of the world have come.

Luk 3:7 Then he said to the crowd that came forth to be baptized by him, O generation of vipers! Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 5:21 You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not kill" --and, "Whoever shall kill shall be liable to the judgment."

Luk 10:13 Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which have been done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented a long while ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Luk 10:14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the Judgment than for you.
Luk 10:15 And you, Capernaum, which has been lifted up to Heaven, you shall be thrust down into hell.

Act 24:24 Then after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was a Jewess, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
Act 24:25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and the Judgment to come, Felix trembled and answered, Go for this time, but taking time later, I will call for you.

It wasn't all Joel Osteen love talk. They warned. They reasoned

And read the letters to the churches in Revelation.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

What did the Apostles teach/preach? Did they just get up and say "Jesus died for your sins, come if you want to?"

It depends on the crowd and who is listening. As the way of the Master puts it, grace to the humble and law to the proud. Yes, we are actually told to warn them of the judgment to come

Col 1:28 whom we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, so that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.
Col 1:29 For which I also labor, striving according to the working of Him who works in me in power.

1Co 10:11 And all these things happened to them as examples; and it is written for our warning on whom the ends of the world have come.

Luk 3:7 Then he said to the crowd that came forth to be baptized by him, O generation of vipers! Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 5:21 You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not kill" --and, "Whoever shall kill shall be liable to the judgment."

Luk 10:13 Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which have been done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented a long while ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Luk 10:14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the Judgment than for you.
Luk 10:15 And you, Capernaum, which has been lifted up to Heaven, you shall be thrust down into hell.

Act 24:24 Then after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was a Jewess, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
Act 24:25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and the Judgment to come, Felix trembled and answered, Go for this time, but taking time later, I will call for you.

It wasn't all Joel Osteen love talk. They warned. They reasoned

And read the letters to the churches in Revelation.

First, I don't believe in Joel Osteen's self-help back massaging. Nor do I believe in a clenched-fist presentation of the Gospel. I DO believe in "love talk." How did Jesus present the Kingdom?

You threw up so many scriptures that are independent of each other that it would be quite difficult for me to go through each one on this post. I'll address only a few:

Luk 3:7 Then he said to the crowd that came forth to be baptized by him, O generation of vipers! Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Who is the audience? Who is the "generation of vipers" he is speaking out against?

Mat 5:21 You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not kill" --and, "Whoever shall kill shall be liable to the judgment."

This is your text to justify scare tactics and emotional manipulation, ends-justify-the-means approaches to sharing the Good News?

Luke 10 -- this wasn't an appeal for them to come to salvation. These were groanings of Jesus. From what I read, it wasn't even a sermon.

We run short on proof-texts because altar calls (altar showdowns) have no biblical precedent -- at all. nada. none.

As far as revelation. This letter from John was HOPE not FEAR to the churches. I would wager that what makes people geek out into decoding the letter, that to most of Christianity in that day, was understood. The encoding of the letter was so that the letter would not bring consequences on them if it were interecepted by authorities. It is Hope. I'd dare say they read it, dragging people by the coat collar to the altars.

Your note about Felix. It began with this in v24 He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus. I can't help but believe Felix's fear was not stemmed only from the judgement talk, which is implied, but a fear we've seen in people who begin to "see it." The Kingdom is presented to them and they have to make a choice. Felix is a corrupt and evil man, hoping even that these talks would produce a bribe from Paul, and instead he finds himself in conviction. There's nothing here about Paul using fear to control Felix, and of course nothing of an emotional altar call showdown.

[Maximilian]

The news is, we all deserve death, but there's a way out... here's it is....