Tithing…Is it a command?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I am not saying that I would tell people to default on their mortgage in order to give to God. Most people that are in bad financial situations are because of management not because of having to give to God. I can say I personally believe that probably 90% of those who struggle financially it is management issues. People have to have all the luxuries possible and if they got it they may put a dollar in the pan.

houses nicer than they can afford- $500-600rent vs. $800-1200+(saints must live in the ghetto to satisfy preacher)
cars nicer than they can afford- $2500 or less vs. $10,000 or more (saints must drive a clunker to satisfy preacher)
internet - doing without it vs. $50mo.
(to satisfy peacher)
satellite T.V. - doing without it vs. $50mo.
(to satisfy preacher)
smart phones - doing without it vs. $75mo. per line(to satisfy preacher)
vacations - doing without it vs. $2,000 annually(to satisfy preacher)


Actually, I tried all of the brother. The pastor had these things but I didnt. Not to mention his personal sauna room, multiple real estate holdings. 100 acre estate, hunting cabin on 100 acres, Jaguar, etc. ....but we(thousands of struggling saints) gave their guts out and the GIGANTIC church is even in the family name!!!

I know I'm meddling now, but really I don't know why we call people poor that are able to afford these things. When the Bible refers to the widows and the fatherless I don't picture them watching a big screen with 100+ channels, but they were actually facing malnutrition and starvation. We say we don't have anything to eat when we run out of the foods we like in the fridge. Many say they shouldn't give ten percent to God, but if you looked at their expenses each mo. you would find that they spend far more than ten percent on things they want that is not necessary.


You absolutely are meddling...The church I described is UPC and the DREAM of all tithe teachers!!!

Would you all agree that where your treasures are there is were your heart will be also. Maybe there is some situations where people are truly poor and can't afford to give, but most in this nation just aren't willing to get out of their comfort zones.

That BIG church got ALL of our treasures, and almost nobody else prospered....I wont get duped again!!!!

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Sean

That BIG church got ALL of our treasures, and almost nobody else prospered....I wont get duped again!!!!

Sean just so you know I am naming the things that I did just for sake of debate. The truth is that there are people who are wrong on both sides, and it isn't just tithe teachers. Christian giving doesn't mean giving what is left and I don't feel like you mean that either. I don't think that most of tithe teachers are as corrupt as this pastor you refer to. If you gave unto the Lord then I don't believe you were duped. The pastor who seeks after filthy lucre is the one who has been duped.

You shouldn't despise him, but instead you should pray for him.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by obriencp

Aquila's post is the answer to this snipped post from good samaritan. I fear too many have been taught to tithe for the wrong reasons and it is engraved in them. If they're tithing to get out of a financial mess, they're setting themselves up for failure. I say this because they're now relying on what their doing, the works of the law, to try to gain favor from the Lord. Hear me out, they can still pay their bills and give sacrificially (maybe less than 10%) while denying themselves of some of the common luxuries IE cell phone, cable tv, dry cleaning, dining out, whatever. However, if they give their tithes first and don't have money for their bills, they're bringing reproach upon themselves in the eyes of the lender. Yes to giving cheerfully, yes to giving sacrificially, but we are to take care of our families. If you default on a loan, you are a covenant breaker and have not lived up to the promise you made to pay that bill.

One preacher of one of our mega churches told the saints to try tithing on what you want to make(think of the implications).

What a joke....

[Father's Love]

Money is the basis of financial strength/power, tithing was a means to teach the children of Israel (emphasis on children) to give and recognize that God provides for them. The New Testament says to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. If we truly wanted to serve God with all our strength, we would use the money we make to provide the things our family NEEDS, then all the rest would go to the works of God. Tithing is a means for us to say "I did my part, I need do no more." Tithing is set up so we can keep our little kingdoms more than so we can give to God. Sad but true.

[good samaritan]

I am not against enjoying things in life. The Bible says not to muzzle the ox that treads the corn and I think that applies to every field of labor not just preachers of the gospel. I think we should enjoy things in life, but it should be in the proper order. By all means take care of your family see to it they have food, shelter, clothing, etc.

After you take care of the necessary stuff then what is the next thing of importance on your list?
Is it a cable bill(so that you can spend countless hours of wasted time instead praying and studying the word)
is to pay for internet(so we can spend all of our time on social media instead of getting out and making real friends who need Jesus)
is to drive a new car (so we can cause others to covet and pursue after things they can't afford and possibly we cannot either)

To all that argue here against tithing I agree that when we try to make tithing carry over like it is a NT law we don't have enough biblical evidence to preach it in such a way. When you look deeper though you find tithing wasn't enough. For those who do tithe they do it and feel like they have done their part for the kingdom of God and many feel like that they are made close to God by their own merits.
When you get to the heart of the matter when we really love and are led by Gods' spirit of love we give cheerfully and bountifully and ten percent is blown away. No one is exempt of this, when you love you give. You don't give frugally, but most often it is done sacrificially. The law gives us a standard to go by, but the Holy Ghost gives us a purpose to give not just doing it to obey a law.

I don't believe teaching tithing is running people from the Lord, but it is having a heart to give. I didn't say all this to convince anyone that tithing is a must, but instead giving generously is a must and for most people in this country it should exceed ten percent. We are blessed.

[KeptByTheWord]

Flaming, Bro. Epley, UnTraditional... or anyone else who is in the pro-tithers camp...

In the setting of OT tithing, which we see discussed in Duet. 14, please comment on how the OT tithing system was taught by Paul to have undergone a change, and transformation in the NT (providing scripture please) and how that understanding translates into the tithing mandate that we have taught today?

For the record, here is the Deut. reference:
Duet. 14:22-29
22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Even though most tithing teaching almost always originates from the OT, I have yet to have heard tithing taught in the setting of the OT (bringing your increase once every 3 years etc.)... most of the time the Malachi curse is used instead... and it would be interesting to hear where Paul taught on the change, and exactly how it changed from bringing tithes every 3 years to paying it off your gross income weekly.

I truly believe those in the pro-tithing camp are scared to admit that if the 10% tithing doctrine was tossed out the window in light of the more scriptural NT teaching of giving according as the Lord has blessed you (1 Cor. 16:1-2), the bottom line is that they are worried about where their next paycheck will come from, for if their people don't have a "mandate" to give, then they may not give at all. Could I be right?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Flaming, Bro. Epley, UnTraditional... or anyone else who is in the pro-tithers camp...

In the setting of OT tithing, which we see discussed in Duet. 14, please comment on how the OT tithing system was taught by Paul to have undergone a change, and transformation in the NT (providing scripture please) and how that understanding translates into the tithing mandate that we have taught today?

For the record, here is the Deut. reference:
Duet. 14:22-29
22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Even though most tithing teaching almost always originates from the OT, I have yet to have heard tithing taught in the setting of the OT (bringing your increase once every 3 years etc.)... most of the time the Malachi curse is used instead... and it would be interesting to hear where Paul taught on the change, and exactly how it changed from bringing tithes every 3 years to paying it off your gross income weekly.

I truly believe those in the pro-tithing camp are scared to admit that if the 10% tithing doctrine was tossed out the window in light of the more scriptural NT teaching of giving according as the Lord has blessed you (1 Cor. 16:1-2), the bottom line is that they are worried about where their next paycheck will come from, for if their people don't have a "mandate" to give, then they may not give at all. Could I be right?

I believe tithing is a good plan for the church. I didn't say it (in itself) is a heaven/hell issue, but how would you like to be a church secretary and not have any idea from week to week what income would come in. I bet you wouldn't want to work at a job where your pay is based on whatever comes in, but yet expect ministers of the gospel to run church operations, evangelize the community, and provide for their families with no projected income amount at all.

When you go to the bank to borrow money one of the requirements is proof of income. Tithing makes financial planning easier for the church and also the giver. If you have a prayerful and generous financial plan to give (personally I think tithing is the best method) it makes it easy for you to have a budget and also helps the church to have a budget. You are right I find no NT testament teaching to command it, but I find many scriptures to support it.

P.S. I believe when it comes to new converts you treat them like babes on milk, but when it comes to saints who have been in the church for years then tithing shouldn't be and issue. Those seasoned saints should have no problem supporting the church and giving systematically this is common sense. If you have entered hard times through no fault of your own I understand, but if you have been a poor steward with the blessings of God I think you might get in trouble with God.

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I believe tithing is a good plan for the church. I didn't say it (in itself) is a heaven/hell issue, but how would you like to be a church secretary and not have any idea from week to week what income would come in. I bet you wouldn't want to work at a job where your pay is based on whatever comes in, but yet expect ministers of the gospel to run church operations, evangelize the community, and provide for their families with no projected income amount at all.

When you go to the bank to borrow money one of the requirements is proof of income. Tithing makes financial planning easier for the church and also the giver. If you have a prayerful and generous financial plan to give (personally I think tithing is the best method) it makes it easy for you to have a budget and also helps the church to have a budget.

You keep records and base financial decisions on past averages. The accountant can track peoples' giving for tax purposes, but if the Pastor doesn't know who specifically gives what, then they cannot ever show favoritism or be accused of such. I think I said it before on this thread that if 90% of what comes in goes towards salaries and bills, then the church isn't doing its job. I think half or more needs to be spend on outreach, clothing drives, donating to food banks, helping those in need, missionaries, etc. Some lending institutions want to know what kind of membership there is, but that could also be figured on a Sunday attendance average. Over time, numbers remain constant, grow (thank the Lord), or shrink (pray about what's wrong). What comes in won't change that much as people are creatures of habit.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by obriencp

You keep records and base financial decisions on past averages. The accountant can track peoples' giving for tax purposes, but if the Pastor doesn't know who specifically gives what, then they cannot ever show favoritism or be accused of such. I think I said it before on this thread that if 90% of what comes in goes towards salaries and bills, then the church isn't doing its job. I think half or more needs to be spend on outreach, clothing drives, donating to food banks, helping those in need, missionaries, etc. Some lending institutions want to know what kind of membership there is, but that could also be figured on a Sunday attendance average. Over time, numbers remain constant, grow (thank the Lord), or shrink (pray about what's wrong). What comes in won't change that much as people are creatures of habit.

I agree with you also on what church finances should go to, but unless the givers first give enough to cover its over head(which should be minimal) than I guess is it cannot give. That is why I am advocating generous systematic giving. It amazes me how so many think that if they have a need they should call their local church, but yet most of the time the great majority don't want to generously give into this storehouse in order for it be able to help anyone.

Preachers who even say the word tithes are labeled greedy, but most of the people calling them greedy look to them to reach out and give in the communities. I think there are people wrong on both sides. I just want to be numbered with those who are following God and letting his spirit lead my life.

[KeptByTheWord]

Good Samaritan: Church is not to be run as a business. We are talking about the kingdom of heaven, not the kingdoms of man. So all your reasoning above simply applies as to how you would logically run a business. And... you provided no scriptural basis either, I might add.

You might read up on this man by following link below... who certainly didn't follow logical business practices to do the Lord's will, and he left an incredible legacy behind him.

http://www.christianity.com/church/c...-11634869.html