Jesus forsaken?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by mfblume

What do you believe about the cry? Did He express what he felt? Did he merely quote scripture? What do you believe so I can contrast it from my beliefs more easily, for if you think he did not spiritually die in this manner, I disagree with your conclusions. The easier way to express myself more clearly is to know here you are coming from.

We started this conversation about a question of seperation. You had said Jesus died spiritually. I had mentioned how that would make Him either not God, or another God. Now you are asking me about what He said on the cross? Well, I can tell you one thing for sure; He was NOT calling out to another God. Like I said before: I believe in One God. I do not believe in separate persons or separate Gods. I also do not believe that Jesus was/is imperfect. Nor do I believe that He suffered schizophrenia or dissociative identity disorder.

What you must remember is that Jesus had to fulfill ALL THINGS. This included that which He was said to do while on the cross. To suggest He called out to someone else begs the question who that someone else would be.

May the One True God bless you!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

We started this conversation about a question of seperation. You had said Jesus died spiritually. I had mentioned how that would make Him either not God, or another God. Now you are asking me about what He said on the cross? Well, I can tell you one thing for sure; He was NOT calling out to another God.

Of course not. I knew you did not beleive that. lol

The thread is all about what Jesus cried about when He spoke of being forsaken.

Like I said before: I believe in One God. I do not believe in separate persons or separate Gods. I also do not believe that Jesus was/is imperfect. Nor do I believe that He suffered schizophrenia or dissociative identity disorder.

Amen. I would not even question you about that. I only wonder why you question me about that. I agree with you.

What you must remember is that Jesus had to fulfill ALL THINGS. This included that which He was said to do while on the cross. To suggest He called out to someone else begs the question who that someone else would be.

HUMANITY called out to DEITY as much as Son prayed to Father. You DO believe Jesus as SON spoke to Father, and it was not just a charade, do you?

May the One True God bless you!

You, too!

Please be a bit more specific. Are you saying Jesus fulfilled scripture by merely quoting a statement that did not express what He literally felt?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Brother Blume was Jesus praying to another person in the godhead?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Please be a bit more specific. Are you saying Jesus fulfilled scripture by merely quoting a statement that did not express what He literally felt?

You don't believe He did this? Then please reconcile this:

Joh 19:28-30
(28) After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
(29) Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
(30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

You don't believe He did this? Then please reconcile this:

Joh 19:28-30
(28) After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
(29) Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
(30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Amen

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

You don't believe He did this? Then please reconcile this:

Joh 19:28-30
(28) After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
(29) Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
(30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Of course he fulfilled scripture saying the very thing the scripture said He would say. But I ALSO believe He said them because He actually felt what He said. He said such statements foretold of Him due to actually THIRSTING and expressing that. He was not lying about what He said, as though He merely had to say that, but not from expresssion of it actually being what He felt. Same with his statement about being forsaken. Do you not believe He felt forsaken, but merely lied and simply said it to be able to say He fulfilled the scripture?

Come on, Bro Benincasa, say amen to my words, too.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Bro Burk you are not following my posts properly perhaps due to my lack of clarification. I was referring to His cry of forsakenness. I believe it was expressing what He felt. He did not pretend those words when he said them, nor did He merely quote them. To say he pretended feeling forsakenness is error.

What do you believe about the cry? Did He express what he felt? Did he merely quote scripture? What do you believe so I can contrast it from my beliefs more easily, for if you think he did not spiritually die in this manner, I disagree with your conclusions. The easier way to express myself more clearly is to know here you are coming from.

So please answer my questions so I can form a better response to you. Thanks!

Do you teach that the Father hid His face from Jesus, while Jesus was dying on the cross?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[mfblume]

David Bernard wrote this in THE ONENESS OF GOD

Originally Posted by DK Bernard

The cry of Jesus on the cross does not mean that the Spirit of God had departed from the body, but that there was no help from the Spirit in His sacrificial death of substitution for sinful mankind. It was not one person of the Godhead being deserted by another, but the human nature feeling the wrath and judgment of God upon the sins of mankind.

That is what I meant by comfort of the Spirit withdrawn from His soul, although the Deity in Him never left the body.

Is Bernard clear enough?

Originally Posted by Dk Bernard

...

The divine Spirit could not be separated from the human nature and life continue. But in His agonizing process of dying, Jesus suffered the pains of our sins. Dying became death when He yielded His Spirit.

...

In other words, what Jesus meant when He cried, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" was that he had taken the place of sinful man on the cross and was suffering the full punishment for sin. There was no abatement of suffering because of His deity. Since all have sinned (Romans 3:23) and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), all mankind (except for the sinless Christ) deserved to die. Christ took our place and suffered the death that we deserved (Romans 5:6-9). Jesus was more than a courageous martyr like Stephen and more than an Old Testament sacrifice, because He died in our place and experienced for a time the death we deserved. On the cross, He tasted death for every man (Hebrews 2:9). This death was more than physical death; it also involved spiritual death, which is separation from God (II Thessalonians 1:9; Revelation 20:14).

No one alive on earth has felt this spiritual death in its fullest degree, because all of us live, move, and have our being in God (Acts 17:28). Even the atheist enjoys many good things such as joy, love, and life itself. Every good thing comes from God (James 1:17), and all life originates from Him and is upheld by Him. But, Jesus tasted ultimate death - the separation from God that a sinner will feel in the lake of fire. He felt the anguish, hopelessness, and despair as if he were a man eternally forsaken by God. So the human nature of Jesus cried out on the cross as Jesus took on the sin of the whole world and felt the eternal punishment of separation for that sin (I Peter 2:24).

We must not assume that the Spirit of God departed from the body of Jesus the moment He uttered the words, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" The divine Spirit left the human body only at death. Hebrews 9:14 says that Christ offered Himself to God through the eternal Spirit. Moreover, Jesus told His disciples with respect to His death,

Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that he shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me" (John 16:32). Thus, the eternal Spirit of God, the Father, did not leave the human body of Christ until Christ's death

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...al/One-Ch8.htm

Maybe David Bernard is not Oneness, though.

[mfblume]

There was nothing about Jesus that had anything to do with sin until He went to the cross, and then it was our sins, not His. So his baptism was for no need of sin. He did it for our example. But that is a far cry from crying in agony about His human nature feeling forsaken after having taken our sins upon Hiimself. He was not lying nor pretending nor just fulfilling prophecy. To say He merely said it to fulfill prophecy loses the point of the whole prophecy which actually was foretelling he would cry those words forth in utterance of what He REALLY felt. He fulfilled prophecy as well as ACTUALLY FELT what He said. HE DID NOT LIE.

I agree with Bernard about this. But I guess you think that means we're not oneness. Ok. Whatever you say. Like I'm really going to take your words over Bernard's,... no offense intended. I have Bernard's email address and you can give him the same shake-down you did to me about this. lol

[Hoovie]

If one believes "the blood is applied" only in baptism, then the baptism of Christ gets to be very strange indeed.