Accepting Him or Rejecting Him; Jesus Name Baptism and Pentecostal Trinity Churches

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Chan

Ephesians 4:6 doesn't say there is this divine being called "God the Father." Try reading the text:

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

There is one God. This one God is the Father of all.

God is not limited to His fatherhood.

Again, you are WRONG about Zechariah 14:7 and I would have expected YOU of all people to know better.

There is but ONE God the Father 1Cor.8:6
One God and the Father of All Eph. 4:6
FATHER...........the ONLY true God Jn.17:3

Jesus is the Name!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Prophecied in Zech.14:7 revealed!!!!

[Michael The Disciple]

Two things.

I take it Chan is the old Chancellor. Chan at times I have agreed with some things you have said. But you strive to prove you are a Trinitarian. What is it that you DO have in common with Oneness people? You have many posts on various forums. There must be some reason you frequent them. Now dont take this to mean that Im saying you should leave. Just curious.

The other thing is this. A Trinitarian may reject baptism in Jesus name. That in itself does not mean they reject Christ entirely. They may need to hear Oneness doctrine taught more accurately. Most Oneness teachers are in error on the doctrine of the Logos so they weaken the case for the doctrine to those already opposing it.

And I agree the spirit will guide into all truth. Now if because the Trins and Arians fail to see the Oneness and baptism that means they are lost for it what about Oneness Christians who teach OTHER false doctrines?

Say they teach false about the rapture? The resurrection? The eternal judgment? Perfection? These are all foundation teachings. Will Apostolics burn in hell because they rejected the Spirits leading into all truth?

And yes I know of Trins who baptize in Jesus name. James Lee Beall Pastor of Bethesda Missionary Temple in Detroit did for many years. Hobart Freeman Pastor of the Faith Assembly network of Churches did though he is now dead.
These were Trinitarians. I have known of others also.

But I can see the rationale of why one ULTIMATELY could be lost if they do reject it (baptism in the name). The Lord did say "Unless you believe that I AM you shall die in your sins".

I teach it as being FULL SALVATION as the UPC once did.

[sola gratia]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

There is but ONE God the Father 1Cor.8:6
One God and the Father of All Eph. 4:6
FATHER...........the ONLY true God Jn.17:3

Jesus is the Name!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Prophecied in Zech.14:7 revealed!!!!

you are incorrect here Bro Epley.
First I think you mean Zech 14:9. That is the verse that discusses the one name.. am I correct in that this is the verse you meant?

Second the timeline your talking about has yet to occur, this is an event that has yet to happen - you have no bases to state JESUS is the one name revealed - there is not scriptural support for it - so one must assume you arrive at this on some supposition of your own

Originally Posted by sola gratia

you are incorrect here Bro Epley.
First I think you mean Zech 14:9. That is the verse that discusses the one name.. am I correct in that this is the verse you meant?

Well, most of us who are familiar with Zechariah 14:9 (my favorite Bible verse) know that this is the passage he meant. But, given how he has this habit of reading into scripture instead of reading scripture, one never knows.

Second the timeline your talking about has yet to occur, this is an event that has yet to happen - you have no bases to state JESUS is the one name revealed - there is not scriptural support for it - so one must assume you arrive at this on some supposition of your own

Another example of him reading into scripture instead of reading scripture. The fact of the matter is that the scriptures don't tell us the name that Jesus manifested, we only know that it was God's name. Now, when I was in a Oneness Pentecostal Bible school, I was taught that the name Jesus manifested was the YHVH of the Old Testament and that Jesus' Aramaic name contains YHVH within it. That doesn't make the name Jesus God's name, however.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Two things.

I take it Chan is the old Chancellor. Chan at times I have agreed with some things you have said. But you strive to prove you are a Trinitarian. What is it that you DO have in common with Oneness people? You have many posts on various forums. There must be some reason you frequent them. Now dont take this to mean that Im saying you should leave. Just curious.

I'm here in memory of Jim Yohe. That is my connection to these forums.

The other thing is this. A Trinitarian may reject baptism in Jesus name. That in itself does not mean they reject Christ entirely. They may need to hear Oneness doctrine taught more accurately. Most Oneness teachers are in error on the doctrine of the Logos so they weaken the case for the doctrine to those already opposing it.

Well, I don't reject Jesus'-name baptism. I may reject the notion that it is the act of baptism that actually saves a person (since I believe it is God's grace alone that saves, as that grace was displayed in the propitiating work of Jesus on the cross) but I don't reject baptizing in the name (authority) of Jesus.

And I agree the spirit will guide into all truth. Now if because the Trins and Arians fail to see the Oneness and baptism that means they are lost for it what about Oneness Christians who teach OTHER false doctrines?

Say they teach false about the rapture? The resurrection? The eternal judgment? Perfection? These are all foundation teachings. Will Apostolics burn in hell because they rejected the Spirits leading into all truth?

Which version of the trinity and which version of oneness? The way some oneness folks communicate their doctrine, it seems essentially identical to the trinitarian doctrine of the Nicene and Constantinopolitan Creeds.

And yes I know of Trins who baptize in Jesus name. James Lee Beall Pastor of Bethesda Missionary Temple in Detroit did for many years. Hobart Freeman Pastor of the Faith Assembly network of Churches did though he is now dead.
These were Trinitarians. I have known of others also.

It wasn't until approximately the fourth or fifth century that the Church really began baptizing according to the words in Matthew 28:19.

But I can see the rationale of why one ULTIMATELY could be lost if they do reject it (baptism in the name). The Lord did say "Unless you believe that I AM you shall die in your sins".

The passage doesn't say I AM in capital letters (as if to indicate the name God told Moses to tell the children of Israel if they ask the name of the God who sent him. Interestingly, the Hebrew word used there is hyh (hayah).

I teach it as being FULL SALVATION as the UPC once did.

Full salvation is what occurs when we go home to be with the Lord.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

There is but ONE God the Father 1Cor.8:6
One God and the Father of All Eph. 4:6
FATHER...........the ONLY true God Jn.17:3

But it doesn't say there is one God the Father, it says there is one God and that this one God is the Father of all.

Jesus is the Name!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Prophecied in Zech.14:7 revealed!!!!

No, Jesus is the name of God's only begotten Son and it was not prophesied in Zechariah 14:7.

Originally Posted by OGIA

Oh.

That's it? Just "Oh"?

I wondered how long it would take you to begin the personal attacks with me.

It wasn't a personal attack. Your question that prompted the statement was evidence that you didn't comprehend what I had posted previously.

And I asked you how God could be manifested in flesh but not His fatherhood. How can that happen if not by something of His diety being "left out" of that manifestation?

No, what you asked was "So, His "fatherhood" was manifested in the man Jesus Christ?"

Which do you prefer?

YHVH

I agree. But, the Son IS the manifestation, in flesh, of the diety we call God the Father.

I prefer to say that Jesus (the Son) is the manifestation of God, as in 1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV), "God was manifest in the flesh."

Nope. The "Christ" part refers to His humanity. Jesus is rendered from Jehovah-Savior. Jehovah is the diety, Savior is the role. Christ, as you know, means Messiah, and the Messiah had to be flesh, so this term applies to His humanity.

It still refers only to His humanity. There is no evidence in scripture to show that the logos was ever named.

[OGIA]

Originally Posted by Chan

That's it? Just "Oh"?

Yes, just "oh", since you don't see that Jesus clearly said He manifested His Father's name. The only name we have scripture declaring He mainfested is Jesus Christ. If you don't see that, why should I belabor the point?

It wasn't a personal attack. Your question that prompted the statement was evidence that you didn't comprehend what I had posted previously.

Then maybe you should have attacked me by saying I should brush up on my "comprehension" skills?

No, what you asked was "So, His "fatherhood" was manifested in the man Jesus Christ?"

Ok, so now I ask you: how can God be manifested in flesh while something of Him, His Fatherhood, is not?

YHVH

This is the name of God? What about the Father? Same person, same name? Or no?

I prefer to say that Jesus (the Son) is the manifestation of God, as in 1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV), "God was manifest in the flesh."

I agree that the Son is the manifestation of God, but the verse does not say the Son was manifested in flesh. It says God. But, according to you, not all of God was manifested in flesh, right?

It still refers only to His humanity.

Christ refers to His humanity. God could not be the Messiah without flesh, right? His diety lies in the name we get by transliteration from YHVH-Savior, Jesus. But, the two cannot be separated. Diety + humanity (Yahweh-Savior + Messiah) are fused into the One called Jesus Christ. The diety was that of the Father, the humanity was that of a woman.

There is no evidence in scripture to show that the logos was ever named.

Really? John 1 clearly tells us the name of the logos when He was manifested in flesh.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

...I teach it as being FULL SALVATION as the UPC once did.

Holy cow, as the UPC once did? What do they preach now?

Originally Posted by OGIA

Yes, just "oh", since you don't see that Jesus clearly said He manifested His Father's name. The only name we have scripture declaring He mainfested is Jesus Christ. If you don't see that, why should I belabor the point?

I agreed that Jesus did say He manifested His Father's name. But to go beyond that is nothing more than INTERPRETATION of scripture.

Then maybe you should have attacked me by saying I should brush up on my "comprehension" skills?

Comprehension is part of reading.

Ok, so now I ask you: how can God be manifested in flesh while something of Him, His Fatherhood, is not?

The same way that a human male can be a father and yet he is not his fatherhood. The same way a son can be like his father yet he is not like his father's fatherhood.

This is the name of God? What about the Father? Same person, same name? Or no?

It is the name of God, not of His fatherhood or of His holiness or of His love or of His justice or any of His other characteristics/attributes.

I agree that the Son is the manifestation of God, but the verse does not say the Son was manifested in flesh. It says God. But, according to you, not all of God was manifested in flesh, right?

As I said, the passage says that GOD was manifest in the flesh - not His fatherhood, not this or that attribute of His. GOD was manifest (revealed) in the flesh. This is not the same thing as John saying that the logos "became flesh and dwelt among us." I think you (and maybe certain others here like Brother Epley) confuse "manifest" with "became."

Christ refers to His humanity. God could not be the Messiah without flesh, right? His diety lies in the name we get by transliteration from YHVH-Savior, Jesus. But, the two cannot be separated. Diety + humanity (Yahweh-Savior + Messiah) are fused into the One called Jesus Christ. The diety was that of the Father, the humanity was that of a woman.

GOD is not the Messiah, God's only begotten Son is the Messiah.

Really?

John 1 clearly tells us the name of the logos when He was manifested in flesh.

Well, here's the passage: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." Show me where it "clearly" tells us the name of the logos.