Forgiveness or Remission?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Nothing about this in this thread. I did not check the earlier one.

The idea was mentioned by the thread starter on page 1, and GoodSamaritan seemed to be arguing in favor of that position (although it's hard for me to tell exactly what his position is).

Current ALJC Articles of Faith:

"Repentance and Remission of Sin
The only grounds upon which God will accept a sinner is repentance from the heart for his sins that he has committed. A broken and contrite heart He will not despise (Psalm 51:17). John preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and before His ascension commanded that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name, beginning at Jerusalem (Luke 24:47). Peter fulfilled this command on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38)."

UPCI Articles of Faith:
"REPENTANCE AND CONVERSION
Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1). John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and the Apostles emphasized it to both Jews and Gentiles. (Acts 2:38, 11:18, 17:30).

The word “repentance” comes from several Greek words which mean, change of views and purpose, change of heart, change of mind, change of life, to transform, etc.

Jesus said, -except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3).

Luke 24:47 says, “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” - http://www.preachingpoints.com/2009/...international/

The UPCI main official website no longer has their Articles of Faith for some reason. And it seems the ALJC has updated their Articles. I remember they used to read almost verbatim the same way the UPCI's did.

Granted, the UPCI could be read in such a way as to accommodate both views (the whole point of the issue during the 1945 Merger), but consider the official PAJC statement which does not conjoin forgiveness with repentance, prefers the term remission, and definitely conjoins remission with baptism (see here and scroll down for link to pdf ---> https://www.pajci.org/about-us ).

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The idea was mentioned by the thread starter on page 1, and GoodSamaritan seemed to be arguing in favor of that position (although it's hard for me to tell exactly what his position is).

Current ALJC Articles of Faith:

"Repentance and Remission of Sin
The only grounds upon which God will accept a sinner is repentance from the heart for his sins that he has committed. A broken and contrite heart He will not despise (Psalm 51:17). John preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and before His ascension commanded that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name, beginning at Jerusalem (Luke 24:47). Peter fulfilled this command on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38)."

UPCI Articles of Faith:
"REPENTANCE AND CONVERSION
Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1). John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and the Apostles emphasized it to both Jews and Gentiles. (Acts 2:38, 11:18, 17:30).

The word “repentance” comes from several Greek words which mean, change of views and purpose, change of heart, change of mind, change of life, to transform, etc.

Jesus said, -except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3).

Luke 24:47 says, “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” - http://www.preachingpoints.com/2009/...international/

The UPCI main official website no longer has their Articles of Faith for some reason. And it seems the ALJC has updated their Articles. I remember they used to read almost verbatim the same way the UPCI's did.

Granted, the UPCI could be read in such a way as to accommodate both views (the whole point of the issue during the 1945 Merger), but consider the official PAJC statement which does not conjoin forgiveness with repentance, prefers the term remission, and definitely conjoins remission with baptism (see here and scroll down for link to pdf ---> https://www.pajci.org/about-us ).

I never differentiated forgiveness/remission on this thread. My view is that you receive forgiveness/remission the moment you truly repent and put your faith in Jesus. Baptism is a command we must follow, but we don’t manipulate the grace of God by doing so. Repentance is a matter of the heart, and forgiveness is a matter of God. We can become like the Pharisees by making salvation by our doctrine rather than salvation by Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:38 doesn’t save me(but God does), but if I live for God,I will follow his commands to be baptized (as well as all the others). If I don’t consent to baptism then I am refusing to serve Him by being disobedient to his Word.

I may have deviated from the threads question, but I haven’t said anything to make you think that forgiveness and remission are 2 different things. In the English yes, in the Greek No. I have agreed all through this this thread that the same Greek word is used for forgiveness/remission.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I never differentiated forgiveness/remission on this thread. My view is that you receive forgiveness/remission the moment you truly repent and put your faith in Jesus. Baptism is a command we must follow, but we don’t manipulate the grace of God by doing so. Repentance is a matter of the heart, and forgiveness is a matter of God. We can become like the Pharisees by making salvation by our doctrine rather than salvation by Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:38 doesn’t save me(but God does), but if I live for God,I will follow his commands to be baptized (as well as all the others). If I don’t consent to baptism then I am refusing to serve Him by being disobedient to his Word.

I may have deviated from the threads question, but I haven’t said anything to make you think that forgiveness and remission are 2 different things. In the English yes, in the Greek No. I have agreed all through this this thread that the same Greek word is used for forgiveness/remission.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The idea was mentioned by the thread starter on page 1, and GoodSamaritan seemed to be arguing in favor of that position (although it's hard for me to tell exactly what his position is).

Current ALJC Articles of Faith:

"Repentance and Remission of Sin
The only grounds upon which God will accept a sinner is repentance from the heart for his sins that he has committed. A broken and contrite heart He will not despise (Psalm 51:17). John preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and before His ascension commanded that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name, beginning at Jerusalem (Luke 24:47). Peter fulfilled this command on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38)."

UPCI Articles of Faith:
"REPENTANCE AND CONVERSION
Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1). John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and the Apostles emphasized it to both Jews and Gentiles. (Acts 2:38, 11:18, 17:30).

The word “repentance” comes from several Greek words which mean, change of views and purpose, change of heart, change of mind, change of life, to transform, etc.

Jesus said, -except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3).

Luke 24:47 says, “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” - http://www.preachingpoints.com/2009/...international/

The UPCI main official website no longer has their Articles of Faith for some reason. And it seems the ALJC has updated their Articles. I remember they used to read almost verbatim the same way the UPCI's did.

Granted, the UPCI could be read in such a way as to accommodate both views (the whole point of the issue during the 1945 Merger), but consider the official PAJC statement which does not conjoin forgiveness with repentance, prefers the term remission, and definitely conjoins remission with baptism (see here and scroll down for link to pdf ---> https://www.pajci.org/about-us ).

Nothing there to support:

Originally Posted by Esaias

There certainly is no basis for the UPC (and copycat ALJC) idea that forgiveness occurs as a wholly separate event distinct from remission.

Now we can return to the real question, does remission have a stronger sense, more than forgiveness, in that it is like the sin never even happened?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Now we can return to the real question, does remission have a stronger sense, more than forgiveness, in that it is like the sin never even happened?

Webster's:

FORGIVE, verb transitive forgiv'. preterit tense forgave; participle passive forgiven. [Latin remitto. See Give.]

1. To pardon; to remit, as an offense or debt; to overlook an offense, and treat the offender as not guilty. The original and proper phrase is to forgive the offense, to send it away, to reject it, that is, not to impute it, [put it to] the offender. But by an easy transition, we also use the phrase, to forgive the person offending.

FORGIVE us our debts.

If we forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly father will also forgive you. Matthew 6:12.

As savages never forget a favor, so they never forgive an injury.

It is to be noted that pardon, like forgive may be followed by the name or person, and by the offense; but remit can be followed by the offense only. We forgive or pardon the man, but we do not remit him.

2. To remit as a debt, fine or penalty.
...

Forgiveness, in English, appears to be remission or remittance. But as noted, in usage we do not remit the man, but we do forgive the man.

REMIS'SION, noun [Latin remissio, from remitto, to send back.]

1. Abatement; relaxation; moderation; as the remission of extreme rigor.

2. Abatement; diminution of intensity; as the remission of the sun's heat; the remission of cold; the remission of close study or of labor.

3. Release; discharge or relinquishment of a claim or right; as the remission of a tax or duty.

4. In medicine, abatement; a temporary subsidence of the force or violence of a disease or of pain, as distinguished from intermission, in which the disease leaves the patient entirely for a time.

5. Forgiveness; pardon; that is, the giving up of the punishment due to a crime; as the remission of sins. Matthew 26:28. Hebrews 9:22.

6. The act of sending back. [Not in use.]
...

I am not seeing much of a difference here. Remission of sins means forgiveness of the sinner, in essence.

The issue of "as if it never happened" seems assumed in def. 1 of forgiveness, "treat the offender as not guilty". If one is declared "not guilty" then they never did the crime charged, as far as the Court is concerned. It is as if they had not sinned and thus have no criminal record.

This beautifully expressed in Psalm 25:
Psalm 25:6-7 KJV
Remember, O Lord, thy tender mercies and thy lovingkindnesses; for they have been ever of old. [7] Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O Lord.

And again:

Psalm 25:10-11 KJV
All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies. [11] For thy name's sake, O Lord, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.

Psalm 25:17-18 KJV
The troubles of my heart are enlarged: O bring thou me out of my distresses. [18] Look upon mine affliction and my pain; and forgive all my sins.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 KJV
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord : for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Forgiveness is identified with God not remembering our transgressions and lawbreaking. If God doesn't remember them, then they do not exist, as if they never did exist. Obviously this by decree of the Divine Government, since the past cannot literally cease to be whatever it was (and thus is). But God can treat us as if we never sinned, which is intrinsic in the meaning of forgiveness.


Hebrews 10:15-18 KJV
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, [16] This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; [17] And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [18] Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Paul's quotation of Jeremiah shows that sins are not remembered and thus no more offering is made for them because they have been remitted. Jeremiah says forgive (see above).

Hebrews 9:22 KJV
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Here, purging and remission are linked.

Hebrews 10:2 KJV
For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Here purging is linked to no more conscience of sins (thus, as if they had not sinned, the sins are blotted out and not part of the record anymore).

So, forgiveness and remission are both linked to the non remembrance of pardoned sins.