Confess your sin, UPCI!

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Brother David

You would think that after 111 years of "speaking in tongues" that such evidence would be freely available to all of those within the Apostolic Faith tradition. Such is simply not the case.

They might as well try. They have nothing to lose. If the search ends up fruitless they can always just claim that since God knew those recordings were going to be used as proof that he intervened and didn't let there be any proof.

[shag]

Ive read thru this off and on a little, and Im not really trying to interupt the discussion at hand, escept briefly, to see what ya guys think of this.....dont throw stones at me now...

I know pentecostals are quick to defend against this, but there are some, as you all know, that feel that just the apostles were the tongue talkers in Acs 2, and 1 proof of that is in the following verse, and I consider this particular verse to be a worthy consideration. Maybe it has been brot up B4 in another thread, I dunno.Here it is:



Acts 1:7 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?



So which is more likely, they figured the 12 were probably all Galileans, or they thot the 120 were all Galileans?


SOME interesting thots..Jesus told the apostles to wait for the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:2-5) Then two angels spoke to the apostles and called them “men of Galilee”. (Acts 1:11)


Joseph of Arimathea and Mary, Martha, and Lazarus of Bethany were not Galileans, and who knows how many of the 120....

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by shag

Ive read thru this off and on a little, and Im not really trying to interupt the discussion at hand, escept briefly, to see what ya guys think of this.....dont throw stones at me now...

I know pentecostals are quick to defend against this, but there are some, as you all know, that feel that just the apostles were the tongue talkers in Acs 2, and 1 proof of that is in the following verse, and I consider this particular verse to be a worthy consideration. Maybe it has been brot up B4 in another thread, I dunno.Here it is:



Acts 1:7 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?



So which is more likely, they figured the 12 were probably all Galileans, or they thot the 120 were all Galileans?


SOME interesting thots..Jesus told the apostles to wait for the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:2-5) Then two angels spoke to the apostles and called them “men of Galilee”. (Acts 1:11)


Joseph of Arimathea and Mary, Martha, and Lazarus of Bethany were not Galileans, and who knows how many of the 120....

NICE! Very interesting.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by shag

Ive read thru this off and on a little, and Im not really trying to interupt the discussion at hand, escept briefly, to see what ya guys think of this.....dont throw stones at me now...

I know pentecostals are quick to defend against this, but there are some, as you all know, that feel that just the apostles were the tongue talkers in Acs 2, and 1 proof of that is in the following verse, and I consider this particular verse to be a worthy consideration. Maybe it has been brot up B4 in another thread, I dunno.Here it is:

Acts 1:7 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

So which is more likely, they figured the 12 were probably all Galileans, or they thot the 120 were all Galileans?

SOME interesting thots..Jesus told the apostles to wait for the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:2-5) Then two angels spoke to the apostles and called them “men of Galilee”. (Acts 1:11)

Joseph of Arimathea and Mary, Martha, and Lazarus of Bethany were not Galileans, and who knows how many of the 120....

Originally Posted by jfrog

NICE! Very interesting.

I've seen that case made. They usually develop it a bit though by stating that "Whoever one of the Twelve laid hands on would, or at least might 'speak in tongues.'"

Thus, when the last of the Twelve died no one new ever authentically "spoke in tongues." And when the last person that had one of the Twelve lay hands on them died - tongues ceased as per 1 Corinthians 13:8.

I've got no stones to throw at you Shaggy!

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I have heard people speak in English that did not know one word in English...also witnessed somene speak in Portuguese here in America and the person did not know Portuguese...

I have read in Billy Cole's biography about him hearing people speak in English when they received the Holy Ghost Baptism. I've also read in Bro. Drost's biography of people speaking in English by the Spirit.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I have heard people speak in English that did not know one word in English...also witnessed somene speak in Portuguese here in America and the person did not know Portuguese...

There have been instances of people understanding what was being said by a person who was speaking in tongues even though the person speaking did not know what he was saying. Over the years I've heard several instances of that. I would imagine some of them have been embellished and maybe some of them are urban legends.

I remember a man named Louis who had been in the military and stationed in Japan after World War 2 telling me something he had actually heard. He had learned a few words of Japanese, simple stuff like counting and some other simple phrases. He was in a church service one time and someone gave a brief message in tongues. He started off by counting from 1 to 10 in Japanese and Louis wondered, "What's this?" The person continued speaking what Louis recognized to be Japanese but did not understand what was being said. Then the interpretation was given that in ten days, something was going to happen. Louis didn't know if anything actually happened in 10 days but he did recognize the counting from 1 to 10 in Japanese.

I read some time ago about an instance that Jack Hayford related. He was on an airplane on his way home from Portland, Oregon and in conversation the person next to him said that he was raised on an Indian reservation in Oklahoma, that his mother was Kiowa and he did not speak English until he started school. Jack Haybordfelt impressed to speak to person next to him in tongues. He hesitated but the impression would not go away. Finally, just before they departed the plane he told the person that he had heard something and wondered if maybe it meant something to him. The man agreed and Jack Hayford uttered a few phrases in tongues in a conversational tone. The man said, "That's a pre-Kiowan language from which our Kiowa Indian tongue came." He continued, "I don't know all the words you spoke, but I do know the idea they express." He went on, "It's something about the light that's coming down from above." This is documented on pages 75-82 in his book “The Beauty of Spiritual Language” copyright 1992.

Several years ago I read a book titled, "Experiencing the Spirit" by Robert Heidler who graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary with a Th.M. in New Testament Literature and Exegisis. I have actually read this book more than once, have recommended it to others, and have given away several copies. This book plus "They Speak With Other Tongues" by John Sherrill are two that I recommend to anyone who wants to know more about the Holy Ghost Baptism and speaking with tongues. Robert Heidler was a pastor and a teacher who did not believe in speaking with tongues or that any of the other gifts of the Spirit were available today. He and his wife later both received the HGB and the book is about their experiences. in 1993 when he was in Moscow and was invited to speak in a church. He had developed a friendship with the pastor and his wife. Their names wereKostya and Helena. The pastor could not speak English but his wife did and had spent a year in England at a Bible School. As the service began, the pastor stepped to the microphone and began to pray in English with no trace of an accent, "Holy Spirit of God, we welcome you here today..." and continued on. Robert Heidler was amazed. Afterward he spoke to Helena and said, "I thought Kostya didn't know English. He was praying in perfect English during the Church service." She smiled and said, "Oh! He doesn't know English. That's his prayer language. He didn't understand anything he said!" She went on to explain that when she and Kostya were dating, she would always know what was on his heart since, when they prayed together, he would pray in "tongues" in English and she, knowing English, could understand everything he was praying!

[Sam]

This is from pages 103 and 104 of “Charisma Vs. Charismania by Chuck Smith, copyright 1992


Several years ago, when Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa was quite small, we were meeting on Sunday nights in a clubhouse. On a particular Sunday evening (which was Pentecost Sunday), at the close of the lesson as we were softly worshipping God together, I asked one of the ladies in the fellowship if she would worship God in the Spirit, since I knew that when she spoke in tongues she usually spoke in French. As she began to worship God, I could understand enough of her French to know that she was thanking God for her new life in Christ and the beautiful new song of love He had given her. I thought this was especially beautiful, as she used to be a nightclub singer prior to her conversion. At the conclusion of her worship in the Spirit, my wife began to give the interpretation to the group, and knowing that she does not know French, I was particularly blessed to hear how accurately the worship with the Spirit was being interpreted for the fellowship.

After the meeting one of the young men in the fellowship brought a Jewish girl from Palm Springs for counseling. When we sat down together, she said, “Before we get to my problems, explain to me what was happening here tonight. Why did the one lady speak to God in French, and the other lady translate to the group what she said?” I said, “Would you believe that neither of those ladies knows French?” I told her that I knew for a fact that neither knew French, since one of them was a close friend and the other was my wife. I then showed her in 1 Corinthians where it speaks of the gift of tongues and interpretation. She then told me that she had lived in France for six years, and that the French spoken was in the perfect accent of what she called the Aristocratic French. She also stated that the translation was perfect. She then said, “I must accept Jesus Christ now, before we go any further.”

It was my joy to see her find her Messiah and become a member of the body of Christ. There was a demonstration of the gift of tongues, followed by the true interpretation, which was glorious praise and worship of God. The result was the edifying of the body and in this case the conversion of this Jewish girl.

[Sam]

In 1964 John and Elizabeth Sherrill wrote a book titled “They Speak With Other Tongues.” The book has gone through several printings and about 2.5 million copies have been sold worldwide. I read it about 40 years ago and was blessed by it. I guess there is no way to know how many people have been informed and influenced by it and how many have received the experience known as “the Pentecostal Experience” or “The Baptism in the Holy Spirit” because of that book.

Here is an excerpt from chapter 2, pages 23-27.

I first heard of Harald Bredesen through Mrs. Norman Vincent Peale, a coeditor, with her husband of “Guideposts.” We were holding a regular Monday night editorial meeting when she came in a little out of breath.

“I’m sorry to be late,” she said. Then, even before her coat was off, “...I’ve just had dinner with a young man who’s given me a real jolt --and a lot to think about.”

I had worked with Ruth Peale for ten years. Everyone on the staff valued her for a quality of balance and levelheaded good sense. She could always be counted on to bring us back to earth, should our thinking ever become too abstract or wishful. I make a point of this because of the strangeness of the story that Ruth told us that evening. It sounded so fanciful that if it had come from someone else, I might have dismissed it rather quickly.

“Have you ever heard the expression ‘speaking in tongues’?” she asked. Most of us had a vague recollection of the phrase. It came from the Bible, I thought.

“’Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels...’ That one?” I said.

“That’s one reference, “ Ruth said. “It’s mentioned in the gospels and Paul speaks of it several times, but most of the references are in the Book of Acts. Apparently, speaking in tongues was a big part of the life of the early Church. Far more than I’d realized.

“Well, my dinner guest said that he had had this experience himself. Not only he, but some of his friends too. Norman and I sat spellbound for two hours while he told us about people all over the country who are having this happen to them. Apparently, the ‘tongue’ sometimes turns out to be a real language, which someone listening will understand, although the speaker has never learned it and has no idea what he is saying. It sounds crazy, doesn’t it? But there’s something about this man....” She paused. “Well, I for one want to know more about it”

After the meeting I told Ruth that I would like to meet her speaker in tongues. I thought it might make a good story for the magazine. I did meet him. But the deeper I got into the subject, the more I realized that I had stumbled onto something too big for a single magazine article.

Harald Bredesen is an ordained minister, pastor of the First Reformed Church, Mount Vernon, New York. He is about my age, then in his late thirties. He had a clerical collar, a bald spot and an excitement that was contagious. Bredesen and I had lunch together in a restaurant near my office, and there, in a setting of coffee cups and sugar shakers, he told me a story that seemed to come from a different world.

A few years earlier, Harald Bredesen, although he’d been busily involved in the work of his church, had also been a dissatisfied young man. It seemed to him that his religious life had no vitality to it, especially when he compared his experiences with those of the earliest Christians.

“There was an excitement, a stirring of life in the young Church” Bredesen said. “The Church today; by and large, has lost this. You’ve felt it, I’m sure. Where are the changed lives? Where are the healings? Where is the belief that men will die for?”

At home in the evenings Bredesen had begun to read the biblical accounts of the early churches with these questions in mind, and almost instantly fell upon a clue. The more he read, the more he became convinced that first-century Christians received their vitality from the Holy Spirit, and more especially from an experience called, in the New Testament, the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Bredesen determined that he was going to have this experience for himself, and he went about it by taking a vacation. He headed for the Allegheny Mountains, ensconced himself in a mountain cabin and there began to pray around the clock. He made up his mind to stay in that cabin until he reached a new level of communication with God. Day after day he kept up his prayer vigil.

At last one morning while he was standing outside the cabin praying aloud, a stillness seemed to settle over the hills. Every fiber of Bredesen’s body tensed, as if his whole being were entering into a new plane of awareness. He stopped speaking for a moment. And when he began again, out of his mouth came, and here are his words as I wrote them down that day:

“...the most beautiful outpouring of vowels and consonants and also some strange, guttural syllables. I could not recognize any of it. It was as though I was listening to a foreign language, except that it was coming out of my own mouth.”

Amazed, curious and a bit frightened, Bredesen ran down the mountain, still talking aloud in this tongue. He came to the edge of a small community. On the stoop of a cabin sat an old man. Bredesen continued to speak in the tongue that was coming so easily and naturally from his lips. The man answered, talking rapidly in a language that Bredesen did not know. When it became obvious that they were not communicating, the old man spoke in English.

“How can you speak Polish but not understand it?” the man asked.

“I was speaking Polish?”

The man laughed, thinking that Bredesen was joking. “Of course it was Polish,” he said.

But Bredesen wasn’t joking. As far as he could recall, he had never before heard the language.

I was still drumming the tabletop over that one, when he told me of a second experience, this one in a lobby of a New York hotel. Bredesen was attending a breakfast meeting and had left his hat on a chair outside the dining room. When the time came to leave, he found the chair occupied not by his hat, but by a pretty young lady.

At the time Bredesen was a bachelor, and his male instincts prompted him to extend the conversation beyond a formal excuse-me-have-you-seen-my-hat? The girl noticed the clerical collar, and in a few minutes they were deep in a conversation on religion. After a while the young lady volunteered the information that her own religious life somehow left her dissatisfied. And soon Bredesen was telling her that he too had felt this lack but that he had found a new dimension in his devotional life through speaking in tongues.

“Through what?” asked the girl.

“Speaking in a language that God gives you,” Bredesen said, and went on to tell her a little about his experience. In the girl’s eyes he read disbelief and also something like apprehension.

“Can you speak in these tongues any time you want to?” she said, and he thought she edged imperceptibly to the far side of her chair.

“They’re given us for prayer.”

“Well, can you pray in tongues whenever you want to?”

“Yes. Would you like me to pray this way now?”

The girl looked around the lobby, outright alarm in her eyes this time.

“I won’t embarrass you” said Bredesen, and with that he bowed his head slightly and after a short silent prayer began speaking words that to him were unintelligible. The sounds were clipped and full of ps and ks. When he finished, he opened his eyes and saw that the girl’s face was ashen.

“Why ... why ... I understood you. You were praising God. You were speaking a very old form of Arabic.”

“How do you know?” asked Bredesen.

Then he learned that the girl was the daughter of an Egyptologist, that she herself spoke several modern Arabic dialects and had studied archaic Arabic.

“You pronounced the words perfectly,” she said. “Where on earth did you learn old Arabic?”

Harald Bredesen shook his head. “I didn’t” he said. “I didn’t even know there was such a language.”

My interview with Harald Bredesen left me more puzzled than enlightened. Surely there was a logical explanation for the tales he’d told me. Otherwise what he was claiming were out-and-out miracles, and this just didn’t jibe with anything I knew of the world today.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Sam

There have been instances of people understanding what was being said by a person who was speaking in tongues even though the person speaking did not know what he was saying. Over the years I've heard several instances of that. I would imagine some of them have been embellished and maybe some of them are urban legends.
...

I had heard the Hayford story before, myself. I have a ton of anecdotes, but no real evidence.

The fact that there does not appear to be a single piece of recorded or otherwise verifiable evidence where Acts 2:4-8, has been repeated in the modern age doesn't negate the possibility that it could have.

What I take issue with is those that insist a recurrence of Acts 2:4-8, MUST take place each time a person is saved; and that without this recurrence the person is lost.

If this element of the "Three Stepper" creed is actually true and Biblical - then they must produce at least some evidence that this happens at all.

[pelathais]

Sam, filling the thread with cut-and-paste anecdotes is NOT the same as providing evidence. If "Pressing-On" is to have her case made, then we surely MUST have evidence of Acts 2:4-8, occurring in every single Pentecostal service. If she were correct, there would be reams of video and authenticated instances of linguists entering Pentecostal services and being saved by the score!

But we have nothing other than cut-and-paste anecdotes; second and third hand testimonies at best... and YOU don't even subscribe to the Three Stepper creed.