Jesus forsaken?

[Theophil]

Mark 15:34 (KJV)
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

I would be interested in opinions as to what extent Jesus was forsaken by God at His crucifixion.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Theophil

Mark 15:34 (KJV)
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

I would be interested in opinions as to what extent Jesus was forsaken by God at His crucifixion.

He, (his humanity) felt forsaken, he wasn't forsaken.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Ron

He, (his humanity) felt forsaken, he wasn't forsaken.

That's my understanding. Jesus suffered the feeling of being totally abandoned by God as He hung on that cross. Hebrews 9:14 says that "Christ...through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God..." I do not believe as some Oneness folks that God withdrew from Jesus on the cross and He suffered alone as a man.

I remember hearing one Oneness preacher on the radio talking about how God entered Jesus after His water baptism and then left Him before His death on the cross and then re-entered Him when He rose from the dead.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Theophil

Mark 15:34 (KJV)
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

I would be interested in opinions as to what extent Jesus was forsaken by God at His crucifixion.

Though confess that there are depths here I have yet to plunge, my own take begins with the Psalm that He is obviously quoting - Psalm 22.

The first 2 verses appear to be cries of despair, however they are followed by an affirmation of faith. So before I can even get into the humanity vis-à-vis Deity issue in Mark 15:34, I am confronted immediately with a very real human cry of suffering. Implied with that cry and in the quoted Psalm I find a renewal of faith.

[Theophil]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Though confess that there are depths here I have yet to plunge, my own take begins with the Psalm that He is obviously quoting - Psalm 22.

Please elaborate...

[mizpeh]

Jesus was not forsaken by God although he felt alone, He wasn't.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Psalm 22 is an incredible psalm. It puts us into the mind of Christ as he hung on the cross! It's written in the present tense and allows us to feel what Christ felt as he hung on the cross. Verse 1 is an example of poetic parallelism. The two questions are worded differently but ask the same thing. Where is God when we are in the pit of suffering?

Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

There are times when we feel like God is not around. We are going through difficult times and we don't feel his presence. Our prayers aren't being answered like we would like them to and we are allowed to go through things we don't want to go through. But we know God is always with us as He was with Jesus.


Though Jesus faith seems to falter in his darkest hour, He rallies back in verses 22-24. God didn't hide his face from Christ but HE HEARD!

22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard

[Theophil]

This was more than the cry of a righteous Sufferer affirming His faith that God would cause Him to triumph (contrast Ps. 22:1 with Ps. 22:28). Nor did Jesus merely feel abandoned. Instead, Jesus’ cry combined (a) abandonment by God the Father in a judicial not relational sense, and (b) a genuine affirmation of Jesus’ relationship to God. Bearing the curse of sin and God’s judgment on sin (cf. Deut. 21:22-23; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 3:13) He experienced the unfathomable horror of separation from God, who cannot look on sin (cf. Hab. 1:13). This answers Jesus’ question, “Why?” Dying for sinners (Mark 10:45; Rom. 5:8; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18), He experienced separation from God.
Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (2:189). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

What do you say to this?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Theophil

This was more than the cry of a righteous Sufferer affirming His faith that God would cause Him to triumph (contrast Ps. 22:1 with Ps. 22:28). Nor did Jesus merely feel abandoned. Instead, Jesus’ cry combined (a) abandonment by God the Father in a judicial not relational sense, and (b) a genuine affirmation of Jesus’ relationship to God. Bearing the curse of sin and God’s judgment on sin (cf. Deut. 21:22-23; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 3:13) He experienced the unfathomable horror of separation from God, who cannot look on sin (cf. Hab. 1:13). This answers Jesus’ question, “Why?” Dying for sinners (Mark 10:45; Rom. 5:8; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18), He experienced separation from God.
Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (2:189). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

What do you say to this?

Jesus separated from God? That's a tricky one!!

If Jesus suffered separation from God for bearing our sins, what happens to us when we sin once we've become His children? Does God automatically disown us until we repent? And isn't it God's goodness and the conviction of the Spirit, IOW, God is dealing with us to bring us back to Himself when we sin. If God left Jesus, (separated Himself from Him because Jesus became sin for us), what hope do I have when I sin?

Besides that's why I posted the verse from Hebrews. It was THROUGH the eternal Spirit that Christ offered himself on the cross.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Theophil

This was more than the cry of a righteous Sufferer affirming His faith that God would cause Him to triumph (contrast Ps. 22:1 with Ps. 22:28). Nor did Jesus merely feel abandoned. Instead, Jesus’ cry combined (a) abandonment by God the Father in a judicial not relational sense, and (b) a genuine affirmation of Jesus’ relationship to God. Bearing the curse of sin and God’s judgment on sin (cf. Deut. 21:22-23; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 3:13) He experienced the unfathomable horror of separation from God, who cannot look on sin (cf. Hab. 1:13). This answers Jesus’ question, “Why?” Dying for sinners (Mark 10:45; Rom. 5:8; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18), He experienced separation from God.
Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (2:189). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

What do you say to this?

My first response would be - "yeah, a bunch of dispy apologists!"

But seriously, as I said earlier - though it seems you posted before I had completed an update - where we begin with this is with the passage that Jesus was referring to. The fact that he was quoting scripture is a powerful indication of the thoughts and feelings he wished to express.

And, the Walvoord and Zuck (I have several of their books) quote does expound upon the idea of Christ being separated as a sin offering.

But the fact that He cried is interesting. That experience of being "forsaken" was traumatizing for Him. It seems to have been felt as one more lash across His back, so to speak. I think it reveals the depths of the emotional suffering He endured. Consider Hebrews 12:3, and the "contradiction of sinners."

Jesus was righteous and went about doing good - yet He was accused of doing evil, Matthew 9:34, Matthew 12:24, and many others. This is just one glaring "contradiction."

He did good but was accused of evil. Then He was charged with blasphemy and tried. God manifest in the flesh was charged with blasphemy - a crime against God. Another "contradiction."

And then when this holy, sinless and righteous man was crucified, He became sin for us, the real sinners in the drama. 2 Corinthians 5:21.

We can objectively tie these things (and many other points) up in nice theological packages and rejoice with thankfulness; but He had to endure it one excruciating step of injustice at a time. I think the cry of Mark 15:34 gives us a window on a very broad panorama.

[mfblume]

Christ's cry was a human cry of not knowing. God requires us, even Christ as Son, to not know everything and go on by faith.