Pastoral Authority....where did it come from?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by OnTheFritz

I may have just missed them (I'm too lazy to re-read the whole thread) But, I see plenty of scriptures that talk about obeying those that have authority over you. But where is the scripture that assigns pastors this authority?

I want New Guy to answer. (first)

[DividedThigh]

important rule, sheep are lead not driven, being a member of a church is a voluntary act, not mandated by any law, if people would grasp this concept, the abuse and controlling would stop, people vote with their feet and their money, both of them disappear from the tyrants eventually, dt

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by DividedThigh

important rule, sheep are lead not driven, being a member of a church is a voluntary act, not mandated by any law, if people would grasp this concept, the abuse and controlling would stop, people vote with their feet and their money, both of them disappear from the tyrants eventually, dt

So true....

[New Guy]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I have.



And about those scriptures? What's your take?

I'm really not sure what those scriptures mean. I have a hard time beleiving that they give a pastor the right to intrude into people's personal lives though. As I said, while reading I've read posts from pastors who have done some pretty extreme preaching to get people to submit and then see others pat them on the back for it. Maybe it was just because they were kind of conservative forums. It is obvious that things are different here. That was when I made the link to controlling and conservatives and why I asked.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by New Guy

I'm really not sure what those scriptures mean. I have a hard time beleiving that they give a pastor the right to intrude into people's personal lives though. As I said, while reading I've read posts from pastors who have done some pretty extreme preaching to get people to submit and then see others pat them on the back for it. Maybe it was just because they were kind of conservative forums. It is obvious that things are different here. That was when I made the link to controlling and conservatives and why I asked.

Fair enough. I don't believe legitimate (pastoral) authority has anything to do with intrusion into a person's personal life, either.

So how does it relate to the authority of leaders who don't intrude into a person's personal life?

I once had a pastor tell me I needed to break off a friendship with my best friend, because allegedly she was in "rebellion", and the scenario that was presented to me was that something bad could happen to her because of her rebellious spirit. And it would be a shame, if say, she had an accident while I was in the car with her on the way to go shopping. (That is almost an exact quote.)

That was the first time I recall ever directly disobeying my pastor. I was rather quiet about it, but I didn't drop my best friend. I told him that I appreciated his input, but that I didn't believe in cutting off friendships with people, even when they had done something wrong.

And she hadn't actually done anything wrong, other than change churches. (He told HER [and us] that he had a dream her 4 year old son had his arm ripped off in a farming accident, apparently in an attempt to keep her from changing churches.)

I told my friend what he had said (about me not being friends with her, because of some impending doom hanging over her head), and she confronted him with it. He said, "May God strike me dead with lightning, if I ever said that."

I believe in being subject to authority, but there are obviously limits and boundaries.

In my experience, this DOES seem to be more of a problem among Independent groups, whether liberal or conservative. Perhaps a pastor who isn't subject to anyone himself is more likely to abuse his authority/influence?

[OnTheFritz]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I believe in being subject to authority, but there are obviously limits and boundaries.

I agree with this too, but frankly I don't consider this authority. I consider this being open to taking your pastor's advice. It's having enough respect for your pastor, that you value his opinion enough to allow it affect your decision-making processes. I think this is important, but I would call that a mentor role.

Cuz' if you are able to disregard the things you don't like, then does he really have any authority at all?

[New Guy]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Fair enough. I don't believe legitimate (pastoral) authority has anything to do with intrusion into a person's personal life, either.

So how does it relate to the authority of leaders who don't intrude into a person's personal life?

I once had a pastor tell me I needed to break off a friendship with my best friend, because allegedly she was in "rebellion", and the scenario that was presented to me was that something bad could happen to her because of her rebellious spirit. And it would be a shame, if say, she had an accident while I was in the car with her on the way to go shopping. (That is almost an exact quote.)

That was the first time I recall ever directly disobeying my pastor. I was rather quiet about it, but I didn't drop my best friend. I told him that I appreciated his input, but that I didn't believe in cutting off friendships with people, even when they had done something wrong.

And she hadn't actually done anything wrong, other than change churches. (He told HER [and us] that he had a dream her 4 year old son had his arm ripped off in a farming accident, apparently in an attempt to keep her from changing churches.)

I told my friend what he had said (about me not being friends with her, because of some impending doom hanging over her head), and she confronted him with it. He said, "May God strike me dead with lightning, if I ever said that."

I believe in being subject to authority, but there are obviously limits and boundaries.

In my experience, this DOES seem to be more of a problem among Independent groups, whether liberal or conservative. Perhaps a pastor who isn't subject to anyone himself is more likely to abuse his authority/influence?

Why would anyone stay in a church like this? I just don't get it.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by New Guy

Why would anyone stay in a church like this? I just don't get it.

We didn't stay. We put in our 30 day notice very shortly after. (We were on staff.) And that was mainly out of respect for the man only because he had been friends with my parents for years and years.

Others stayed because they were too scared to do anything differently.

To complicate matters, he was a "prophet." Twice while we were there he prophesied the death of a saint, and in both instances that particular person was dead within 6 months.

Those kinds of things tie people up in knots.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by New Guy

Why would anyone stay in a church like this? I just don't get it.

FEAR.

Fear that if you disobey the man, you're disobeying God and horrible things will happen to you spiritually and physically.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by New Guy

Why would anyone stay in a church like this? I just don't get it.

newguy,
it does not matter what THEY would do...what matters is what YOU do?

You do not need to 'get' what other people do.
You need to be led by the spirit in your study and consideration of the scripture. What instruction (light) does it bring to your understanding concerning our individual roles and personal responsibilities within the community of the called out ones?

There are so many people who greatly prefer having a human king, a professional bible interpreter and advisor, a full-time, paid go-between and spirit guide, so that they can continue to give their full attention/focus to making money, playing games, waxing cars, dining; free to travel and critique if somebody else is doing right or not doing right.

You and I and everyone else who has received this new birth will have to determine (with our spiritual-mindedness) if the scripture expects us to be subjects of RULERS within God's own body, within God's own Kingdom....or not. And if not, then what is expected of our shared experience when our lives have occassion to experience those who have traveled longer and further on this journey then we have?

So Newguy, what do you think and live for yourself...putting aside for this discussion what anybody else does or does not do?