Gay Pastor's(xupc)recent Letter to the UPCI ! ! !

Originally Posted by JamDat

1Cor 7:1 ¶ Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
10 ¶ And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

I fail to see anywhere in the New Testament when dealing with marriage (or if you prefer monogamous cohabitation) anything about a man and a man or a woman and a woman.

In verse 7 Paul says that every man has his proper gift of God. Is homosexuality a proper gift of God?

Homosexual and monogamous relationships leading to life-long committed relationships were not in the thoughts and minds of the writers of the Scriptures because marriage was a legal and contractual agreement BETWEEN TWO MEN and with the WOMAN BEING NOTHING MORE THAN PROPERTY. Women had no right to property or even to her children, because she existed only as an adjunct to her husband.

Homosexual covenant relationships are a modern and progressive concept just as mixed marriages are. We do not see an example of mixed marriages in the Bible, except the ones that were denounced, yet most would agree that mixed marriages are not in of themselves unbiblical. So is the case with homosexual covenant relationships.

Just in this last century, marriage was defined as a union between people of the same race. In 1967, for example, sixteen states had anti-miscegenation laws on the books, making marriage between two people of different races a criminal offense. At that time it was considered unnatural for the races to marry, much the same way society views same-sex marriages today.

[JamDat]

Originally Posted by brad2723

Homosexual and monogamous relationships leading to life-long committed relationships were not in the thoughts and minds of the writers of the Scriptures because marriage was a legal and contractual agreement BETWEEN TWO MEN and with the WOMAN BEING NOTHING MORE THAN PROPERTY. Women had no right to property or even to her children, because she existed only as an adjunct to her husband.

I would say that homosexual relationships life-long or not weren't in the minds of the writers of the scriptures because the scriptures were given by the inspiration of God. While the scriptures do say to render unto ceaser and to obey the laws of the land, first and most important were the principals of God.

It seems quite clear in the scripture I quoted that Paul did not think the woman adjunct to her husband. The world at that time and since may have thought that way, but Paul is clearly showing us God's way.

Originally Posted by brad2723

Homosexual covenant relationships are a modern and progressive concept just as mixed marriages are. We do not see an example of mixed marriages in the Bible, except the ones that were denounced, yet most would agree that mixed marriages are not in of themselves unbiblical. So is the case with homosexual covenant relationships.

Denounced? Do you mean when God drove out people before Israel so they wouldn't take of their daughters and eventually go a whoring after other gods?

Race had nothing to do with it. Worship did. Besides the only really progressive concept of mixed marriages is between the African descendants and European descendants. There really wasn't that much of a stigma between other races.

Anyway I fail to see how a mixed race marriage between a man and a women is the same case as a marriage between two men or two women. Maybe you could enlighten me more on this?

Originally Posted by brad2723

Just in this last century, marriage was defined as a union between people of the same race. In 1967, for example, sixteen states had anti-miscegenation laws on the books, making marriage between two people of different races a criminal offense. At that time it was considered unnatural for the races to marry, much the same way society views same-sex marriages today.

You talk about a man and a women being the same as a man and a man. Notice in the following that Jesus did not mention homosexual relationships. Was He also under the influence of society?

Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

It has been a pleasure chatting with all of you but I have to take a few days break in order to focus on my finals for this coming week. I will likely drop by again in the near future to consider chatting some more. Take care!

[Rhoni]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chosenbyone
I know it must be very difficult for many to understand how a person becomes so confused with their gender that they would take steps to alter their physical bodies to resemble the opposite sex.

I've met many transgendered people both female to male and male to female and I can't feel anything but sympathy for them. The utter torment that they must experience and the darkest of all deceptions that rule their lives should make us all pray for these individuals.

Do you know that the male to female transgendered people have the highest rate of HIV? That fact is greatly unreported due to the stigma not only from heterosexuals but even gays and lesbians. The possibility of gaining employment becomes difficult and many that would want to work a legitimate job resort to prostitution to survive.

There life span has become even shorter than a male homosexual and the thought of these tortured souls having to spend eternity in hell after experiencing hell on earth is so tragic. I know that Jesus loves these people and I hope that we could see beyond what we can't comprehend and love them as he does.

Many years ago, a friend was giving a male to female transgendered person a bible study and that person was so moved by the message of salvation and Christ's love for "her". That person wept and was ready to be baptized, but didn't go because she realized that she would have to lose this person she became and except the male person that she was born.

Such a sad story for you see she had gone so far in her transformation that even my friend stated that it would be very difficult for her to be excepted in our churches.

Satan is a liar and we must demonstrate that God's grace and mercy isn't exclusive of any segment of our society. The more we state that there is no hope for people that are different (transgendered, lesbian, gay) the more we are guilty of contributing to their fate.

Many blessings to you.

Dear Chosenbyone,

All of us caught in the lies of satan are tormented. Whether they be adulterers, fornicators, pedophiles, homosexuals, transgendered, those caught in the spirt that promotes being a peeping Tom, lust, pornography, addictions of any kind; alcoholism, substance abuse, gambling, sexual addictions, ect...

When struggling with any of these or similar sins/addictions we are confused, wonder what is really us...the us of what others have told us we are, the us of what we think we are, or the us of who satan tells us we are, or the truth in who Jesus says we are!

I do think we need to show mercy, grace, and compassion, but we also need to be truthful to people...they can be free from the lies satan tells them. They do not have to be bound by the addictions they have acquired whether from their own poor choices, the abuse done to them by others, or the transgenerational sins of the family.

Calling sin to be sin is not judgemental, but saying there is no hope and condemning people to a life without Christ and his transforming power is. I am so glad that the things that have happened to others, such as; physical, mental, or sexual abuse did not happen to me...not that I haven't had my own issues and demons to torment me.

The example you gave about a transgendered person afraid to be baptized because they would lose themselves is just what we all do when we are baptized...we die to ourselves, our will, and agree to give our life over to Christ and His will. It does take a sensitive and compassionate person to address this in a way that the person struggling will understand that we all struggle with the same things, only others to a greater extent.

I fight constantly with the side of myself that is strong and independent and have to force myself to submit to God's will. Not because I don't want it but because I hate to feel helpless or out of control or like I am giving up my identity. Trust is difficult for me...I have been hurt, had to survive against all odds, and to just fall into anyone's hands, and yes...sometimes I don't even realize how arrogant I am to think I can control things better than Christ can do for myself. When I have to wait, trust without questioning, not knowing where my next footstep will be placed...I am scared...you might say terrified and sometimes find it easier to go back to what I know and even the bondage I have been delivered from because it is comfortable..a.t least I know what to expect.

The transgendered, the homosexual, and those bound by other confusing and hell-driven addictions are not any more confused or scared than the rest of us. Instead of looking at what we perceive to be vast differences between us...we need to look at the truth of the commonalities we all face. Christ came to break the curse...we either believe it and give our lives to accepting and "Letting" God change us or we fight inwardly as well as outwardly our whole lives not really believing in anything...hopeless if you would.

In summary, we all struggle with different variences of the same issues...and we either believe Christ and his transforming power and 'let' it happen with us, or we don't believe, and die a most miserable death as we have lived in life. This is the saddest condition of all.

In God's Grip [most of the time],

Rhoni

[chosenbyone]

Rhoni,

I was a bit confused when my post showed up on this thread. I thought I had posted it twice, but then thought that was impossible.

I finally figured it out.

chosen

[berkeley]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_Jonathan

Allow me to jump in here momentarily.... if I may.

EVERYTHING we do, whether in word or deed, entails a personal decision. No, I do NOT believe that homosexuality is something which is developed during ones childhood. Simply put, IMHO, one chooses, of their own volition, to engage in an homosexual act, or NOT! Its just that simple, albeit one who elects to do so will certainly devise all sorts of reasoning for justification of their actions.

I learned many years ago that every act I undertake involves a decision. And it is my choice, ALONE, as to whether or not I choose to do something. To suggest that one is born with homosexual tendencies, or that this is something which is acquired/formed during ones childhood, is nothing more than assigning something other than PERSONAL CHOICE to support an act which stands in stark contrast to the distinctive difference which God instituted between the male and female at the time of their creation.

This is my personal view of this matter.

Originally Posted by PaPaDon

Allow me to jump in here momentarily.... if I may.

EVERYTHING we do, whether in word or deed, entails a personal decision. No, I do NOT believe that homosexuality is something which is developed during ones childhood. Simply put, IMHO, one chooses, of their own volition, to engage in an homosexual act, or NOT! Its just that simple, albeit one who elects to do so will certainly devise all sorts of reasoning for justification of their actions.

I learned many years ago that every act I undertake involves a decision. And it is my choice, ALONE, as to whether or not I choose to do something. To suggest that one is born with homosexual tendencies, or that this is something which is acquired/formed during ones childhood, is nothing more than assigning something other than PERSONAL CHOICE to support an act which stands in stark contrast to the distinctive difference which God instituted between the male and female at the time of their creation.

This is my personal view of this matter.

PaPaDon,

I don't know if you are married, have kids, grandkids, or what. If you do, may I ask, Did you chose to be attracted to your wife? Did you chose to fall in love with your wife? The choices you make regarding your wife and kids (again, assuming they exist) is influenced by your unchosen love and natural affection for them.

On a more specific and less philosophical level, did you chose your stature?; your foot size? your hairline? None of us have directly chosen any of these attributes YET we make decisions based on their naturally progressive existence (i.e., what kind of clothes and shoes to buy, what kind of hair products to use, etc.).

So it is with orientation. It is a naturally developing, God-given, human experience that is not determined by choice. What we as humans do choose, however, is how to physically respond to our natural psychological and emotional development.

Originally Posted by brad2723

PaPaDon,

I don't know if you are married, have kids, grandkids, or what. If you do, may I ask, Did you chose to be attracted to your wife? Did you chose to fall in love with your wife? The choices you make regarding your wife and kids (again, assuming they exist) is influenced by your unchosen love and natural affection for them.

On a more specific and less philosophical level, did you chose your stature?; your foot size? your hairline? None of have directly chosen any of these attributes YET we make decisions based on their naturally progressive existence.

So it is with orientation. It is a naturally developing, God-given, human experience that is not determined by choice. What we as humans do choose, however, is how to physically respond to our natural psychological and emotional development.

Well, non-heterosexual orientations are not "naturally developing" but, instead, are aberrations that are contrary to God's created design.

Originally Posted by Chan

Well, non-heterosexual orientations are not "naturally developing" but, instead, are aberrations that are contrary to God's created design.

You cannot make a claim that homosexual orientation is not "naturally developing" unless you can prove that heterosexual orientation IS naturally developing and that homosexual orientation is not.