1> Did the Tulsa 6 have a right to start WPF ?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Dan'D

Quietly - If you are going to do something do it. There are a lot of others that will benefit from it.

Dan'D

This reflects a pattern of behavior that is is rebellious and fraught with peril. Could I have a mailing list for the members of your local assembly? I would like to send each of them a pamphlet entitled "Freedom from Tithing." I think a lot of others will benefit from it.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Dan'D

Did we not see this coming. In the last few years you have seen more UPC churches go Independent because of standards.

The church I was raised in was UPC but the pastor was prepared in case he felt the UPC was going the wrong direction they would pull out.

No one can deny that UPC as a general has been going more and more liberal. Regardless of your personal feeling there are a lot of pastor and ministers that feel over the years the UPC left them. A lot of things are being allowed in some churches that no one would ever believe 10 – 15 years ago.

For most, being an independent church has so many problems not being in an organization. There people has no connection between other churches for large meetings, Camp Meeting, Youth Camp and general fellowship etc.

Did the Tulsa group have the right way to pull out and start another organization / Fellowship. No mater how they would go about it, they would had been criticized. It took a number of men who people highly respected to start the new fellowship. Not just respected in there own area but thru out UPC. They knew that there would be people calling them names and criticized them for what they did. Yet they did it anyway. I can not answer for all the men but the ones I know did not do it personal reasons.

This has been in the planning stages for a very some time and weather or not, NW won an election in California would not have any effect on the decision on starting the WPF.
Since they disagree with the direction UPC is going at what point do they say enough is enough. Which was where the Resolution on TV comes in. An then have enough support of pastors and ministers to do something of this magnitude.

The Tulsa 6 I’m sure was in contact with 100’s maybe 1000’s of pastor before they started WPF. If you feel they should not had contacted the other UPC ministers. Don’t we have freedom of speech within the ranks of UPC if you feel something is wrong.

Remember since this group of pastors are so well know I’m sure most if not all of the contacted pastors and minister were on first name basics.

Bro Haney does not answer to God for me, My pastor will have to. Bro. Haney was voted in to run an organization not run the church I attend. If my pastor did not do what he felt God was directing him to do, he would be derelict of his calling and again he would answer to God for that.

Whether you agree or disagree

I believe the so called Tulsa 6 felt God was directing them this way for some time. Who are we to tell them God was not directing them.


Questions:

1> Did the Tulsa 6 have a right to start WPF ?
2> How should they had done it?

going liberal. Going charismatic....it's funny but in other churches a liberal is someone that supports abortions and ordinations of gays...you got an org that approved the use of TV to reach the lost and suddenly they have gone liberal

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Dan'D

Questions:

1> Did the Tulsa 6 have a right to start WPF ?
2> How should they had done it?

1> Without a doubt, in my mind at least. Freedom of association is a right that patriots have given their lives to defend.

2> They should not have used the UPC mailing list. To purchase a license for the list for one purpose - and sign that you agree to the terms; and then to use it in violation of those terms shows a bad spirit to me. I know that these men are not answerable to me, but they could have found a way to communicate with just as much effectiveness and avoided the ethics charges.

Also, they really should have left the org before they started to recruit. They had agreed that they wouldn't divide the group in this fashion when they joined. This represents another ethical problem.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by pelathais

1> Without a doubt, in my mind at least. Freedom of association is a right that patriots have given their lives to defend.

2> They should not have used the UPC mailing list. To purchase a license for the list for one purpose - and sign that you agree to the terms; and then to use it in violation of those terms shows a bad spirit to me. I know that these men are not answerable to me, but they could have found a way to communicate with just as much effectiveness and avoided the ethics charges.

Also, they really should have left the org before they started to recruit. They had agreed that they wouldn't divide the group in this fashion when they joined. This represents another ethical problem.

My My where are those mules?

[Dan'D]

Originally Posted by pelathais

1> Without a doubt, in my mind at least. Freedom of association is a right that patriots have given their lives to defend.

2> They should not have used the UPC mailing list. To purchase a license for the list for one purpose - and sign that you agree to the terms; and then to use it in violation of those terms shows a bad spirit to me. I know that these men are not answerable to me, but they could have found a way to communicate with just as much effectiveness and avoided the ethics charges.

Also, they really should have left the org before they started to recruit. They had agreed that they wouldn't divide the group in this fashion when they joined. This represents another ethical problem.

Are you sure that they purchase the list from UPC. That was not what I understood.

Dan'D

[Dan'D]

Originally Posted by Dan'D

Are you sure that they purchase the list from UPC. That was not what I understood.

Dan'D

Sorry I did not finish my thought

I understood that there list was of there (Tulsa 6) own Accumulation.

Dan'D

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Dan'D

Sorry I did not finish my thought

I understood that there list was of there (Tulsa 6) own Accumulation.

Dan'D

Dandy, "info" at WPF said they bought it for "another conference" and that they used it for Tulsa. That's what they said.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Dan'D

Are you sure that they purchase the list from UPC. That was not what I understood.

Dan'D

A poster here sent an email to the info at wpf email address and asked about that. The response they got back from "info" was that they used the list that they had purchased for "another conference" for the Tulsa Summit as well.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by pelathais

A poster here sent an email to the info at wpf email address and asked about that. The response they got back from "info" was that they used the list that they had purchased for "another conference" for the Tulsa Summit as well.

Read the email again. It seems to imply that they bought an updated list every year for events, and used the same one over and over throughout the year. Whether you see it as right of wrong, is your viewpoint. I really could care less at this point what they did, because I see them as just another UPCI.

Originally Posted by OfInterest

This was a dialogue between myself and whoever answers their email (info@worldwidepf.com) at the WWPF.

I first emailed and asked the following:

"Do you think it is unethical to steal a mailing list from an organization you are planning to leave and use that mailing list to advertise for your new "fellowship"/organization?"


Their reply:

"it was not stolen.
Sincerely,
God Bless You"

My response:

"If that is true, why was my UPCI ministerial ID on it?"


Their 2nd reply:

"The list was bought and paid for from the UPC. They used to give them
away and now they sell them. I helped sponsor a meeting and we used
to get a new one every year.

In case you wondered, there are UPCI mailing lists ALL over this
nation. I know of literally hundreds of ministers that have
them...Sorry.
God Bless You,"
I sent this third reply I sent on the 15th of January. I have not received a reply. (not that I anticipate receiving one):

"If you read the guidelines to using such a list, it states that they are for a one time use and your district superintendent must sign his approval for the use. Did you have district superintendent approval to use this list? Have you used it more than once? Also, was this the first time you has used that list? How many times have you used this same list? Also, UPCI idnumbers are not supposed to be included on out of the building mailings. This is a clear example of unethical behavior unbecoming ministers of the gospel."

I know the UPCI is not perfect. I have plenty of complaints, but organizations/fellowships are made of people and people are not perfect, thus this new fellowship will have plenty of it's own problems. If they were truly starting this organization over the TV resolution, it would make them look pretty silly and inconsistent when most of them have web broadcasts. You cannot legislate every media source. If they have other complaints, they should start talking about them instead of creating new fellowships/organizations.

[dizzyde]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Read the email again. It seems to imply that they bought an updated list every year for events, and used the same one over and over throughout the year. Whether you see it as right of wrong, is your viewpoint. I really could care less at this point what they did, because I see them as just another UPCI.

The sheer volume of your posts on the topic, and the heat with which you have stated your position would seem to indicate otherwise.