Incarnation OR Indwelling?

[OnTheFritz]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Steve, your question does not give me any clear terms to use to reply. “In the same way?” what does mean?

So I will offer this for others…
The spirit of God indwelled his only begotten Son by virtue of God making his abode with his Son. So in that regard, YES, God indwelled his only begotten Son “in the same way”.

But what your question doesn’t even consider is the dramatic differences between our ROAD to the earthly REALM and the manner by which the only begotten Son of God entered into this earthly stage.

I am from BELOW, the only begotten Son of God is from ABOVE.
I was born first of the earth, earthly. I was first born of the will of my earthly father.

He was born of the will of the Spirit. He was fathered (begat by) the Spirit of God when God’s word spoke the creative seed that fertilized the OVUM in his handmaiden Mary. AT THIS POINT, God’s WORD/SEED became flesh.

So, YES, God’s Spirit indwells me in the SAME MANNER as his spirit INDWELLS his only begotten Son, but the origins of the two lives in which God is tabernacled, are different.

Also, John 3:31-36 reveals that the God gave the Spirit to his only begotten Son NOT WITH MEASURE, but we, as children by adoption, have only the earnest of our promise while we remain in these earthly vessels.

John 3:31-36

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

e that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him

I agree with this.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Steve, your question does not give me any clear terms to use to reply. “In the same way?” what does mean?

So I will offer this for others…
The spirit of God indwelled his only begotten Son by virtue of God making his abode with his Son. So in that regard, YES, God indwelled his only begotten Son “in the same way”.

But what your question doesn’t even consider is the dramatic differences between our ROAD to the earthly REALM and the manner by which the only begotten Son of God entered into this earthly stage.

I am from BELOW, the only begotten Son of God is from ABOVE.
I was born first of the earth, earthly. I was first born of the will of my earthly father.

He was born of the will of the Spirit. He was fathered (begat by) the Spirit of God when God’s word spoke the creative seed that fertilized the OVUM in his handmaiden Mary. AT THIS POINT, God’s WORD/SEED became flesh.

So, YES, God’s Spirit indwells me in the SAME MANNER as his spirit INDWELLS his only begotten Son, but the origins of the two lives in which God is tabernacled, are different.

Also, John 3:31-36 reveals that the God gave the Spirit to his only begotten Son NOT WITH MEASURE, but we, as children by adoption, have only the earnest of our promise while we remain in these earthly vessels.

John 3:31-36

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

e that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him

Excellent thoughts TBPew! We are even now in the process of becoming like him. [Jesus]. We are taught in scripture that he is to be called the son of God Luke 1:35.

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he [Jesus] shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Raven

[Maple Leaf]

Originally Posted by Esther

Didn't want to lose this discussion from another thread.

Posted by Mapleleaf

The Son was not a body in which God dwelt; the Son was God manifested in flesh, Emmanuel, God with us.


It is the difference between incarnation and indwelling.

In Christ, God did not indwell a man, God became a man.

The birth of Christ was a unique joining of absolute Deity with perfect humanity, and of this we say, great is the mystery of godliness."

Not long ago I listened, horror stricken, to a man, immersed in the teachings of the modern Gnostics, say "I am not equal to God, but I am equal to Jesus."

That, I would submit, is the inevitable result of teaching indwelling versus incarnation.

The Son of God was, and is, incarnate Deity. I am a man indwelt by the Spirit of God.

Read the following post in the light of what I have just said, and then do a little Internet search on the use of the term "joint heir" among the disciples of Hagin and Copeland.

Originally Posted by tbpew

DerrickS,
stay the course, being fully led by the spirit that is within you.
If somebody says "you are not oneness", don't take it as point needing to be defended.

Godliness is the privilege of the creature being partaker in the divine purpose.

Our 'joint heir' gave a clear perspective when he witnessed:
The words which I speak are not my own, but the father who has sent me, he does the works. (see John 14:10)

It is what indwells the vessel that has the words of eternal life.
The vessel has no ability or power in and of itself to do the works.
God has made his habitation (indwelling) in the hearts of men, by his spirit.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Maple Leaf

Not long ago I listened, horror stricken, to a man, immersed in the teachings of the modern Gnostics, say "I am not equal to God, but I am equal to Jesus."

That, I would submit, is the inevitable result of teaching indwelling versus incarnation.

The Son of God was, and is, incarnate Deity. I am a man indwelt by the Spirit of God.

Read the following post in the light of what I have just said, and then do a little Internet search on the use of the term "joint heir" among the disciples of Hagin and Copeland.

Wow, imagine using scriptural terms to discuss scripture....
what will those tricky gnostics think up next!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by OnTheFritz

Fairly recently, I have come to believe that it was more of an indwelling than an incarnation.

I don't know if that falls into traditional oneness or not - probably not. I have heard several messages and discussions that talk about not minimizing Christ's human-ness, as it was the necessary component for him to die for our redemption. The indwelling concept is interesting to me in that it makes Jesus the perfect example of a human given over completely to the spirit of God. He was all God, but not all OF God. To me that makes him truly magnificent as it allows for the same fleshly desires and limitations that we have, but fully led by the spirit within him - as we should be.

The Bible declares that Jesus is God, the Almighty, unquestionably and not a simple indwelling like you and I experience when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit. (that would be Unitarianism).

The Bible also teaches that Jesus was/is indwelt by the Holy Spirit/Father.

And lastly the Bible teaches that God became man. He became in all things like us. This is the comprehension struggle of the ages. How do we understand all these things together? How do we reconcile God becoming man and at the same time being indwelled by God? Because without question, Jesus sees himself as someone other than the Holy Spirit/Father.

This conversation has been going on for thousands of years. Without argument, it's a great mystery. The doctrine of the Trinity was created in an attempt to solve this mystery.

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

The Bible declares that Jesus is God, the Almighty, unquestionably and not a simple indwelling like you and I experience when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit. (that would be Unitarianism).

The Bible also teaches that Jesus was/is indwelt by the Holy Spirit/Father.

And lastly the Bible teaches that God became man. He became in all things like us. This is the comprehension struggle of the ages. How do we understand all these things together? How do we reconcile God becoming man and at the same time being indwelled by God? Because without question, Jesus sees himself as someone other than the Holy Spirit/Father.

This conversation has been going on for thousands of years. Without argument, it's a great mystery. The doctrine of the Trinity was created in an attempt to solve this mystery.

I posted this in another thread... I will post this here... I don't have time to write again... I'm leaving work and got a busy weekend ahead of me.

I don't care if the conversation has been going on for years... it is what God has shown me in his word... I rarely get to this section of the forum.. so recently is the first time I have read about it here. It is like a puzzle piece started fitting together correctly... now the scripture fits... I do not see three, or two.. I clearly see one... God is Spirit... there is but one God.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the father... but it was in his actions, words that was the image of God... his life totally fulfilled the word of God spoken...which did begin with a thought. He was the faithful witness to everything spoken of prophets of old. Mt 2:23 Mt 5:17
The Spirit of God was IN Christ... but was not him...only the invisible expressed in action.
Because the Son paid the price... everything that we do walking, living according to the Word brings glory to him... by everything we say and do. I'm so thankful for the sacrifice... for the Word bridged the gap between man and God..

My biggest issue with saying that Jesus was just God wrapped up in flesh is basically saying that he had an advantage... it takes away from the sacrifice of Jesus overcoming temptation of sin and submitting his will to the Father....the ultimate sacrifice of giving your life for another... true love, he paid it all... and because of that, he can help us in temptations... Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. If we think he had an advantage...then we will always make excuses for not walking towards perfection through him.

Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever.

btw, God cannot be tempted and neither will he tempt anyone. James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (yet Jesus was tempted) Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

You cannot take God and make him flesh in any way.... God (who is Spirit) was IN Christ Jesus....and now God can be in us as well... dwelling in us as we conform to his image as the body of Christ.

[mizpeh]

Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the father... but it was in his actions, words that was the image of God... his life totally fulfilled the word of God spoken...which did begin with a thought. He was the faithful witness to everything spoken of prophets of old. Mt 2:23 Mt 5:17

Was Jesus the Word made flesh? John 1:14 How would you define "Word"? John 1:1 states the Word was God not a thought, not an image, not an action.

The Spirit of God was IN Christ... but was not him...only the invisible expressed in action.

Is it possible that Jesus not only was God existing as a man but was also anointed by God?

If you don't believe Jesus was God, you have to explain what he meant when He said in Rev 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Jesus said other things that indicated that He was/is God. The writers of the NT believed that Jesus was/is God.

Because the Son paid the price... everything that we do walking, living according to the Word brings glory to him... by everything we say and do. I'm so thankful for the sacrifice... for the Word bridged the gap between man and God..

The Word did bridge the gap when the Word became flesh. But the Word was God and the Word became man. These are not easy to reconcile nor explain whether you are Oneness or a Trinitarian. And a Unitarian has to explain away all the verses that teach the Messiah is God in the flesh. The Son shall be called The Mighty God.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

My biggest issue with saying that Jesus was just God wrapped up in flesh is basically saying that he had an advantage... it takes away from the sacrifice of Jesus overcoming temptation of sin and submitting his will to the Father....the ultimate sacrifice of giving your life for another... true love, he paid it all... and because of that, he can help us in temptations... Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. If we think he had an advantage...then we will always make excuses for not walking towards perfection through him.

Then you may be surprised that many agree with your sentiments. Even though I believe Jesus is God Himself revealed in flesh, I do not believe Jesus did or said anything from His divine nature. He functioned as a man anointed by God. Jesus' very words attest to this fact.

John 7:16-17 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Some people refer to the setting aside or nonuse of divine powers as a kenosis or an emptying. I see it somewhat differently.

You cannot take God and make him flesh in any way.... God (who is Spirit) was IN Christ Jesus....and now God can be in us as well... dwelling in us as we conform to his image as the body of Christ.

God was Christ and God was in Christ. You have to accept both of these statements because it is what the Bible declares. How you reconcile these statements is up to you.

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Was Jesus the Word made flesh? John 1:14 How would you define "Word"? John 1:1 states the Word was God not a thought, not an image, not an action.

Is it possible that Jesus not only was God existing as a man but was also anointed by God?

If you don't believe Jesus was God, you have to explain what he meant when He said in Rev 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Jesus said other things that indicated that He was/is God. The writers of the NT believed that Jesus was/is God.


The Word did bridge the gap when the Word became flesh. But the Word was God and the Word became man. These are not easy to reconcile nor explain whether you are Oneness or a Trinitarian. And a Unitarian has to explain away all the verses that teach the Messiah is God in the flesh. The Son shall be called The Mighty God.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Then you may be surprised that many agree with your sentiments. Even though I believe Jesus is God Himself revealed in flesh, I do not believe Jesus did or said anything from His divine nature. He functioned as a man anointed by God. Jesus' very words attest to this fact.

John 7:16-17 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Some people refer to the setting aside or nonuse of divine powers as a kenosis or an emptying. I see it somewhat differently.

God was Christ and God was in Christ. You have to accept both of these statements because it is what the Bible declares. How you reconcile these statements is up to you.

all I can say is I don't have a problem with any scripture you have posted here... I just see it differently... because I know see how he was the Word....

I also now understand how we are our words... the fleshly body was not God. His actions revealed was God.... just as people now look at us and we following the example that he lead... we now reflect Christ.... because he is reigning in power... it is his example... his actions that has paved the way that is all powerful by his sacrifice... doing things in the name of Jesus is simply doing as Jesus did... doing as the one we follow.

gotta go

[DaveC519]

Some people refer to the setting aside or nonuse of divine powers as a kenosis or an emptying. I see it somewhat differently.

Hi Mizpeh,

In what way(s) do you see this differently? Thanks

[ForeverBlessed]

I want to say also... I studied because something is missing. I am not satisfied with how things are... I've had lots of questions that I could not answer... it has made me search for answers. I believe that when I ask with a sincere heart, God is going to give to me. I was at a place in my life if I can't understand and see him for who he is.. I'm done, cause I was done playing church... or done w/religion.

I would read an online book of David Bernards... and I still couldn't make it fit... One thing that always got me was the fact that the letters always start off acknowleging God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. I poured over the scripture of order in 1 Cor 11... I just kept reading and searching.

See.... the first thing I was struggling with was that Jesus had the ability to sin... know that might sound crazy...but see I was raised to believe that Jesus was God himself robed in a fleshly body... so I was first faced with the fact that it wasn't true... and then from there I just kept asking "how then God" was a very frequent prayer while praying.

One night about three years ago, I was sitting in my car outside the church where my brother pastors... I was asking God to help me understand... once again. "how then??" He spoke very audibly to me (this has only happened a few times in my life) very plainly was it spoken as chills ran up and down me... the words were "I was in him just the same as I dwell in you"

It wasn't much longer that I was reading and studying and I saw how Jesus was the Word... how the very life he lived fulfilled every scripture, every prophesy spoken... he became the living Word of God.. I can't explain it other than I was unable to sleep all night long... when I saw it, I saw it and rejoiced all night long... tears, shouting.. one of the most awesome experiences. It was his life, his testimony, the actions that was the manifestation of God.

It went from there to seeing how we have made a God out of the fleshly man Christ Jesus... people still view and think of God as flesh...and that he is coming back in the flesh.. on a real white horse no less... i just know from studying that flesh cannot be God... they are opposites.

I read and the more I study, the more I understand... I've found that fasting and prayer along with the studying that God is showing me who he is... and the more I go the more I realize I am still so far away from truly knowing him.

What I do know though, can't be shaken because its been revealed by God...not man.

sorry for my rambles.