Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Church

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Perfection is relative.

My son was crawling when a baby, he couldn't stand. But he was perfect.
My son can walk now at two years old, but can't entirely talk like an adult. But he is perfect.
When he is a grown man he will have human imperfections that we all have. But if found in Christ, he will be perfect.

So what does the scriptural use of the word PERFECT mean?
You write:
If found in Christ he will be perfect"
So what does being "perfect" mean?

[Aquila]

As for recognizing the church... I believe that they'd recognize this as being a church...

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Aquila

As for recognizing the church... I believe that they'd recognize this as being a church...

So it really is about people under 40!
I'm doomed!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by tbpew

So what does the scriptural use of the word PERFECT mean?
You write:
If found in Christ he will be perfect"
So what does being "perfect" mean?

Being all you can be for Christ... in spite of your human imperfections. It's not based on performance... it's essentially based on how God sees one through the blood.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by tbpew

So it really is about people under 40!
I'm doomed!

No. It's about intimate fellowship and discipling of individuals. Not big programs, buildings, and organizations.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Being all you can be for Christ... in spite of your human imperfections. It's not based on performance... it's essentially based on how God sees one through the blood.

Oh really? Then how do you explain this?

Rev. 3:1-5

1: And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2: Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3: Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Had these been washed in his blood? He calls them his Church. Yet he rebukes them BECAUSE THERE WORKS WERE NOT PERFECT. Does it say somewhere here that his judgment of them was NOT based on their performance of his will? And YHWH would see the blood and pass on over?

Or is it crystal clear he was judging them on whether their works were perfect before YHWH?

What does he give as consequence if we do not overcome?

Name blotted out of book of life verse 5.

Its dramatic the difference between the words of Yeshua and what men teach nowadays.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Being all you can be for Christ... in spite of your human imperfections. It's not based on performance... it's essentially based on how God sees one through the blood.

but the question was "what does PERFECT mean?". When scripture uses the word, what understanding are we to take away from that word usage?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by tbpew

But our being like the FATHER is accomplished by being made COMPLETE by him. It is the state of FULLNESS. It is the ALL in ALL.

To view it otherwise, would invite a person to be snared into thinking that seeks perfection as a reinvention of being righteous by the works of the law --the foolishness of the bewitched Galatians.

I said nothing about observing the law of Moses. Think of the "finished" or "complete" definition like this:

16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim. 2:16-17

Paul defines it here in the sense of being completley furnished "unto all good works".

That would mean being able to do all the good works commanded us.

The scriptures are given that we may be perfect. Combined with the life of Yeshua in us through the Holy Spirit we are able to do the Lords will and be pleasing to him.

[GrowingPains]

When you say Church are you referring to UPCI? Need to know if we are to expect a bashing session to follow. I think Apostles would be appalled at how legalistic we've become -- and also how commercialized Western Christianity has become, how manicured, pop-culturized, dumbed down, simplified and far from the "mystery of godliness" that Paul wrote about. I think he'd see things they liked, and be amazed at what a nation the West lives in, but they'd be appalled at the slothfulness, the wasted wealth, the fighting and bickering over silly things, but the laziness also of those who are so selfish about their self-sacrifice for the Lord. He'd be searching for Holiness in spirit. He'd see a national fulfillment of the person of Lazarus. The Apostles would not understand the watering down of their doctrine to fill congregations of sincere people who are hungry to be obedient to Scripture.

They'd be pleased with the spread of the Gospel. They'd be pleased with the desire of worshippers. They'd be pleased with the popularity of Christ. But they'd have more regrets than anything, and let's just assume they understood the times, culture and technology... they'd still be blown away. I think this question posted is an important question, because it helps us stay on track with what we should strive for. We aren't perfect or perfected, except through the blood of Christ, but we are so wayward, fallible, and far from where God wants us. The prophets of old helped confront the church, and now most would rather rebuke the "legalists" than let a prophets voice speak to its churches with a mirror in hand. America is ready for an Awakening.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Aquila

As for recognizing the church... I believe that they'd recognize this as being a church...

I like this. I like this picture a lot.

Aquila, but now that we aren't an underground sub-culture, threatened with death, bankrupt and poor, would we be expected to build larger gatherings for the saints? In other words, did they meet this way because of doctrinal reasons or simple logistics?