Calvin's 500th birthday

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Today is John Calvin's 500th birthday. A great thinker and shaper of much of our christian thinking.

Here are some links concerning his birthday.

http://nearemmaus.blogspot.com/2009/...day-today.html

http://www.calvin500.com/

http://www.desiringgod.org/Store/Boo...ait_of_Calvin/

You are about to read an important part of church history from the Reformation period that has been so concealed in our day that very few people know the facts. Brace yourself for a shock.

On October 27, 1553 John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies!(1) Hence, the originator of the popular doctrine of "once saved, always saved" (known in certain circles as "the perseverance of the saints") violated the cry of the Reformation -- "Sola Scriptura" -- by murdering a doctrinal heretic without Scriptural justification. This event was something Calvin had considered long before Servetus was even captured, for Calvin wrote his friend, Farel, on February 13, 1546 (seven years prior to Servetus' arrest) and went on record as saying:

"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."(2)

Evidently, in that day Calvin's authority in Geneva, Switzerland had ultimate "weight." This is why some referred to Geneva as the "Rome of Protestantism"(3) and to Calvin as the "Protestant 'Pope' of Geneva."(4)

During Servetus' trial, Calvin wrote:

"I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty."(5)

All this reveals a side of John Calvin that is not well-known or very appealing, to say the least! Obviously, he had a prolonged, murderous hate in his heart and was willing to violate Scripture to put another to death and in a most cruel way. Although Calvin consented to Servetus' request to be beheaded, he acquiesced to the mode of execution employed. But why did Calvin have a death wish for Servetus?

"To rescue Servetus from his heresies, Calvin replied with the latest edition of his 'Institutes of the Christian Religion,' which Servetus promptly returned with insulting marginal comments. Despite Servetus's [sic] pleas, Calvin, who developed an intense dislike of Servetus during their correspondence, refused to return any of the incriminating material."(6)

"Convicted of heresy by the Roman Catholic authorities, Servetus escaped the death penalty by a prison break. Heading for Italy, Servetus unaccountably stopped at Geneva, where he had been denounced by Calvin and the Reformers. He was seized the day after his arrival, condemned as a heretic when he refused to recant, and burned in 1553 with the apparent tacit approval of Calvin."(7)

In the course of his flight from Vienne, Servetus stopped in Geneva and made the mistake of attending a sermon by Calvin. He was recognized and arrested after the service.(8)

"Calvin had him [Servetus] arrested as a heretic. Convicted and burned to death."(9)

From the time that Calvin had him arrested on August 14th until his condemnation, Servetus spent his remaining days:

" ... in an atrocious dungeon with no light or heat, little food, and no sanitary facilities."(10)

Let it be noted that the Calvinists of Geneva put half-green wood around the feet of Servetus and a wreath strewn with sulfur on his head. It took over thirty minutes to render him lifeless in such a fire, while the people of Geneva stood around to watch him suffer and slowly die! Just before this happened, the record shows:

"Farel walked beside the condemned man, and kept up a constant barrage of words, in complete insensitivity to what Servetus might be feeling. All he had in mind was to extort from the prisoner an acknowledgement [sic] of his theological error -- a shocking example of the soulless cure of souls. After some minutes of this, Servetus ceased making any reply and prayed quietly to himself. When they arrived at the place of execution, Farel announced to the watching crowd: 'Here you see what power Satan possesses when he has a man in his power. This man is a scholar of distinction, and he perhaps believed he was acting rightly. But now Satan possesses him completely, as he might possess you, should you fall into his traps.'

When the executioner began his work, Servetus whispered with trembling voice: 'Oh God, Oh God!' The thwarted Farel snapped at him: 'Have you nothing else to say?' This time Servetus replied to him: 'What else might I do, but speak of God!' Thereupon he was lifted onto the pyre and chained to the stake. A wreath strewn with sulfur was placed on his head. When the faggots were ignited, a piercing cry of horror broke from him. 'Mercy, mercy!' he cried. For more than half an hour the horrible agony continued, for the pyre had been made of half-green wood, which burned slowly. 'Jesus, Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me,' the tormented man cried from the midst of the flames ...."(11)

Although we essentially have the same in the conversion of the repentant thief (Lk. 23:42,43 cf. Lk. 18:13) and the Scripture, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:13), Farel still reckoned Servetus an unsaved man at the end of his life:

"Farel noted that Servetus might have been saved by shifting the position of the adjective and confessing Christ as the Eternal Son rather than as the Son of the Eternal God."(12)

"Calvin had thus murdered his enemy, and there is nothing to suggest that he ever repented his crime [sic]. The next year he published a defence [sic] in which further insults were heaped upon his former adversary in most vindictive and intemperate language."(13)

As the Roman Catholics of 1415 burned John Hus(14) at the stake over doctrine, John Calvin, likewise, had Michael Servetus burned at the stake. But was doctrine the only issue? Could there have been another reason, a political one?

"As an 'obstinate heretic' he had all his property confiscated without more ado. He was badly treated in prison. It is understandable, therefore, that Servetus was rude and insulting at his confrontation with Calvin. Unfortunately for him, at this time Calvin was fighting to maintain his weakening power in Geneva. Calvin's opponents used Servetus as a pretext for attacking the Geneva Reformer's theocratic government. It became a matter of prestige -- always the sore point for any dictatorial regime -- for Calvin to assert his power in this respect. He was forced to push the condemnation of Servetus with all the means at his command."(15)

"Ironically enough, the execution of Servetus did not really bolster the strength of the Geneva Reformation. On the contrary, as Fritz Barth has indicated, it 'gravely compromised Calvinism and put into the hands of the Catholics, to whom Calvin wanted to demonstrate his Christian orthodoxy, the very best weapon for the persecution of the Huguenots, who were nothing but heretics in their eyes.' The procedure against Servetus served as a model of a Protestant heretic trial .... it differed in no respect from the methods of the medieval Inquisition .... The victorious Reformation, too, was unable to resist the temptations of power."(16)

Is it possible for a man such as John Calvin to have been a "great theologian" and at the same time to act in this reprehensible way and afterwards show no remorse? Dear reader, do you have a heart that could, like John Calvin, burn another person at the stake?

At best, Calvin was spiritually blinded by this hate and therefore, spiritually hindered from rightly dividing the word of truth.(17) At worst, which was apparently the case, John Calvin himself was unsaved, according to Scripture:

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars -- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).

"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar and the truth is not in him" (1 Jn. 2:3,4).

"And you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding [continuing] in him" (1 Jn. 3:15, NKJV).

The Greek adds an important word to 1 Jn. 3:15 that is sometimes omitted in English translations. That word is "continuing" or "abiding" (NKJV) and states that murderous people don't have eternal life continuing in them.

Dear reader, since murderers are unsaved and John Calvin was a murderer, then Calvin was unsaved! Moreover, since the unsaved are darkened in their spiritual understanding (Eph. 4:18) and Calvin was unsaved based on Scripture, then Calvin was darkened in his spiritual understanding.

Jesus said we can "know" people by their fruit (Mt. 12:33) -- be it John Calvin or anyone else! Similarly, the Apostle John wrote:

"This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother" (1 Jn. 3:10).

Can you say Calvin did what was "right" regarding Servetus? If not, then doesn't this make him a "child of the devil," according to this verse and others already cited? Though some will rant and rave over this conclusion, can we Scripturally come to any other?

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Shawn

....hmmm...why would I be? I'm no a John Calvinist. I don't have a lot in common with him.

Here are some things you might have in common.

http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/



I am eager for people to know Calvin...because he took the Bible so seriously, and because what he saw on every page was the majesty of God and the glory of Christ. Calvin continues to inspire me because of his relentless focus on the greatness of God....

In the end, Calvin’s manifold ways of inspiring us have the effect they do century after century because he saw the gospel so clearly and made Christ so central....

If Jesus Christ, in all his majesty and excellence, is kept in clear view, the church will be kept from many errors. Therefore, Calvin continues to inspire and serve the church five hundred years after his birth....

[staysharp]

Of course I would never want to judge...I may end up being his butler in his mansion for all eternity...

[staysharp]

The true plan of salvation is repentance towards God and faith in Christ Jesus (Acts 20:21). We prove our repentance by our deeds (Acts 26:20). The Lord Jesus taught the road to life is "hard" and only a "few" will find it (Mt. 7:13,14, NKJV). Many get saved, but afterwards fall away (Lk. 8:13; Jn. 6:66; 1 Tim. 1:19; etc.). In other words, after initial salvation we must endure to the "end" to enter the kingdom of God and escape the lake of fire (Mt. 10:22; Heb. 3:14; Rev. 2:10,11). Eternal life comes to the repentant the moment such believe on Jesus for salvation (Jn. 3:16; 6:47; 1 Jn. 5:12,13), but there is another important aspect of eternal life that many are totally unware of in our day because of the false teaching of eternal security. According to true grace teaching, eternal life is also a HOPE (Titus 3:7), yet to be REAPED (Gal. 6:8,9) in the AGE TO COME (Mk. 10:30) for only the ones who PERSIST IN DOING GOOD (Rom. 2:7) and DO NOT GROW WEARY AND GIVE UP (Gal. 6:9).

If a saved person sows to please his sinful nature he'll die spiritually (Rom. 8:13; Gal. 6:8,9). The prodigal is a clear example of this (Lk. 15:24,32). The end result of sin is spiritual death, so DO NOT BE DECEIVED (James 1:14-16). For more information regarding the believer's security, see our what's new page. Our 801 page book, The Believer's Conditional Security, is the most exhaustive and comprehensive refutation to eternal security ever written. It will not be refuted!

Because of the teaching of once saved always saved, grace has been taught as a license for immorality for so long, and without challenge, that when Scripture is quoted, such as 1 Cor. 6:9,10 or Rev. 21:8, it is disregarded, and the giver of God's Word is falsely accused of teaching legalism, bondage, works, etc. This reflects how truly dark are the days in which we live!

The ACID TEST question to know if a ministry or local congregation is teaching a license for immorality as condemned by Jude 3,4 is: Does true grace allow the sexually immoral in heaven? If their answer is "YES," avoid it like the AIDS virus! To sit under this teaching influence could mean that your soul and the souls of your loved ones will be eternally damned as a result. To support and promote such a ministry and teaching is to share in its wicked work (2 Jn. 9-11). This includes your financial donations! Flee from such a ministry or congregation and encourage others to do the same before it's eternally too late.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by staysharp

You are about to read an important part of church history from the Reformation period that has been so concealed in our day that very few people know the facts. Brace yourself for a shock.

On October 27, 1553 John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies!(1) Hence, the originator of the popular doctrine of "once saved, always saved" (known in certain circles as "the perseverance of the saints") violated the cry of the Reformation -- "Sola Scriptura" -- by murdering a doctrinal heretic without Scriptural justification. This event was something Calvin had considered long before Servetus was even captured, for Calvin wrote his friend, Farel, on February 13, 1546 (seven years prior to Servetus' arrest) and went on record as saying:

"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."(2)

Evidently, in that day Calvin's authority in Geneva, Switzerland had ultimate "weight." This is why some referred to Geneva as the "Rome of Protestantism"(3) and to Calvin as the "Protestant 'Pope' of Geneva."(4)

During Servetus' trial, Calvin wrote:

"I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty."(5)

All this reveals a side of John Calvin that is not well-known or very appealing, to say the least! Obviously, he had a prolonged, murderous hate in his heart and was willing to violate Scripture to put another to death and in a most cruel way. Although Calvin consented to Servetus' request to be beheaded, he acquiesced to the mode of execution employed. But why did Calvin have a death wish for Servetus?

"To rescue Servetus from his heresies, Calvin replied with the latest edition of his 'Institutes of the Christian Religion,' which Servetus promptly returned with insulting marginal comments. Despite Servetus's [sic] pleas, Calvin, who developed an intense dislike of Servetus during their correspondence, refused to return any of the incriminating material."(6)

"Convicted of heresy by the Roman Catholic authorities, Servetus escaped the death penalty by a prison break. Heading for Italy, Servetus unaccountably stopped at Geneva, where he had been denounced by Calvin and the Reformers. He was seized the day after his arrival, condemned as a heretic when he refused to recant, and burned in 1553 with the apparent tacit approval of Calvin."(7)

In the course of his flight from Vienne, Servetus stopped in Geneva and made the mistake of attending a sermon by Calvin. He was recognized and arrested after the service.(8)

"Calvin had him [Servetus] arrested as a heretic. Convicted and burned to death."(9)

From the time that Calvin had him arrested on August 14th until his condemnation, Servetus spent his remaining days:

" ... in an atrocious dungeon with no light or heat, little food, and no sanitary facilities."(10)

Let it be noted that the Calvinists of Geneva put half-green wood around the feet of Servetus and a wreath strewn with sulfur on his head. It took over thirty minutes to render him lifeless in such a fire, while the people of Geneva stood around to watch him suffer and slowly die! Just before this happened, the record shows:

"Farel walked beside the condemned man, and kept up a constant barrage of words, in complete insensitivity to what Servetus might be feeling. All he had in mind was to extort from the prisoner an acknowledgement [sic] of his theological error -- a shocking example of the soulless cure of souls. After some minutes of this, Servetus ceased making any reply and prayed quietly to himself. When they arrived at the place of execution, Farel announced to the watching crowd: 'Here you see what power Satan possesses when he has a man in his power. This man is a scholar of distinction, and he perhaps believed he was acting rightly. But now Satan possesses him completely, as he might possess you, should you fall into his traps.'

When the executioner began his work, Servetus whispered with trembling voice: 'Oh God, Oh God!' The thwarted Farel snapped at him: 'Have you nothing else to say?' This time Servetus replied to him: 'What else might I do, but speak of God!' Thereupon he was lifted onto the pyre and chained to the stake. A wreath strewn with sulfur was placed on his head. When the faggots were ignited, a piercing cry of horror broke from him. 'Mercy, mercy!' he cried. For more than half an hour the horrible agony continued, for the pyre had been made of half-green wood, which burned slowly. 'Jesus, Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me,' the tormented man cried from the midst of the flames ...."(11)

Although we essentially have the same in the conversion of the repentant thief (Lk. 23:42,43 cf. Lk. 18:13) and the Scripture, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:13), Farel still reckoned Servetus an unsaved man at the end of his life:

"Farel noted that Servetus might have been saved by shifting the position of the adjective and confessing Christ as the Eternal Son rather than as the Son of the Eternal God."(12)

"Calvin had thus murdered his enemy, and there is nothing to suggest that he ever repented his crime [sic]. The next year he published a defence [sic] in which further insults were heaped upon his former adversary in most vindictive and intemperate language."(13)

As the Roman Catholics of 1415 burned John Hus(14) at the stake over doctrine, John Calvin, likewise, had Michael Servetus burned at the stake. But was doctrine the only issue? Could there have been another reason, a political one?

"As an 'obstinate heretic' he had all his property confiscated without more ado. He was badly treated in prison. It is understandable, therefore, that Servetus was rude and insulting at his confrontation with Calvin. Unfortunately for him, at this time Calvin was fighting to maintain his weakening power in Geneva. Calvin's opponents used Servetus as a pretext for attacking the Geneva Reformer's theocratic government. It became a matter of prestige -- always the sore point for any dictatorial regime -- for Calvin to assert his power in this respect. He was forced to push the condemnation of Servetus with all the means at his command."(15)

"Ironically enough, the execution of Servetus did not really bolster the strength of the Geneva Reformation. On the contrary, as Fritz Barth has indicated, it 'gravely compromised Calvinism and put into the hands of the Catholics, to whom Calvin wanted to demonstrate his Christian orthodoxy, the very best weapon for the persecution of the Huguenots, who were nothing but heretics in their eyes.' The procedure against Servetus served as a model of a Protestant heretic trial .... it differed in no respect from the methods of the medieval Inquisition .... The victorious Reformation, too, was unable to resist the temptations of power."(16)

Is it possible for a man such as John Calvin to have been a "great theologian" and at the same time to act in this reprehensible way and afterwards show no remorse? Dear reader, do you have a heart that could, like John Calvin, burn another person at the stake?

At best, Calvin was spiritually blinded by this hate and therefore, spiritually hindered from rightly dividing the word of truth.(17) At worst, which was apparently the case, John Calvin himself was unsaved, according to Scripture:

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars -- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).

"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar and the truth is not in him" (1 Jn. 2:3,4).

"And you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding [continuing] in him" (1 Jn. 3:15, NKJV).

The Greek adds an important word to 1 Jn. 3:15 that is sometimes omitted in English translations. That word is "continuing" or "abiding" (NKJV) and states that murderous people don't have eternal life continuing in them.

Dear reader, since murderers are unsaved and John Calvin was a murderer, then Calvin was unsaved! Moreover, since the unsaved are darkened in their spiritual understanding (Eph. 4:18) and Calvin was unsaved based on Scripture, then Calvin was darkened in his spiritual understanding.

Jesus said we can "know" people by their fruit (Mt. 12:33) -- be it John Calvin or anyone else! Similarly, the Apostle John wrote:

"This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother" (1 Jn. 3:10).

Can you say Calvin did what was "right" regarding Servetus? If not, then doesn't this make him a "child of the devil," according to this verse and others already cited? Though some will rant and rave over this conclusion, can we Scripturally come to any other?

Ummm, . . . there is more to this story. But if the Oneness want to claim Servetus there is plenty of dirt on him.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by staysharp

The true plan of salvation is repentance towards God and faith in Christ Jesus (Acts 20:21). We prove our repentance by our deeds (Acts 26:20). The Lord Jesus taught the road to life is "hard" and only a "few" will find it (Mt. 7:13,14, NKJV). Many get saved, but afterwards fall away (Lk. 8:13; Jn. 6:66; 1 Tim. 1:19; etc.). In other words, after initial salvation we must endure to the "end" to enter the kingdom of God and escape the lake of fire (Mt. 10:22; Heb. 3:14; Rev. 2:10,11). Eternal life comes to the repentant the moment such believe on Jesus for salvation (Jn. 3:16; 6:47; 1 Jn. 5:12,13), but there is another important aspect of eternal life that many are totally unware of in our day because of the false teaching of eternal security. According to true grace teaching, eternal life is also a HOPE (Titus 3:7), yet to be REAPED (Gal. 6:8,9) in the AGE TO COME (Mk. 10:30) for only the ones who PERSIST IN DOING GOOD (Rom. 2:7) and DO NOT GROW WEARY AND GIVE UP (Gal. 6:9).

If a saved person sows to please his sinful nature he'll die spiritually (Rom. 8:13; Gal. 6:8,9). The prodigal is a clear example of this (Lk. 15:24,32). The end result of sin is spiritual death, so DO NOT BE DECEIVED (James 1:14-16). For more information regarding the believer's security, see our what's new page. Our 801 page book, The Believer's Conditional Security, is the most exhaustive and comprehensive refutation to eternal security ever written. It will not be refuted!

Because of the teaching of once saved always saved, grace has been taught as a license for immorality for so long, and without challenge, that when Scripture is quoted, such as 1 Cor. 6:9,10 or Rev. 21:8, it is disregarded, and the giver of God's Word is falsely accused of teaching legalism, bondage, works, etc. This reflects how truly dark are the days in which we live!

The ACID TEST question to know if a ministry or local congregation is teaching a license for immorality as condemned by Jude 3,4 is: Does true grace allow the sexually immoral in heaven? If their answer is "YES," avoid it like the AIDS virus! To sit under this teaching influence could mean that your soul and the souls of your loved ones will be eternally damned as a result. To support and promote such a ministry and teaching is to share in its wicked work (2 Jn. 9-11). This includes your financial donations! Flee from such a ministry or congregation and encourage others to do the same before it's eternally too late.

Bro., Calvinist do not teach we have a license to sin. That is a strawman argument.

OSAS, taught incorrectly will send people to hell. An unregenerate person will use OSAS to justify their behaviour but they are just as lost as Judas.

BTW, Calvin was the holiness movement of his day. He was the WPF of his day except he taught grace. Maybe that is why you don't like him staysharp because he was too holiness for you.

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Bro., Calvinist do not teach we have a license to sin. That is a strawman argument.

OSAS, taught incorrectly will send people to hell. An unregenerate person will use OSAS to justify their behaviour but they are just as lost as Judas.

BTW, Calvin was the holiness movement of his day. He was the WPF of his day except he taught grace. Maybe that is why you don't like him staysharp because he was too holiness for you.

No, I don't like him because..."He that hateth his brother has murder in his heart". This is how we know we have passed from death to life, because we have love for the brethren.

Saul was a murder and a thief. When he was born again, he no longer murdered and he repented of his sin and recognized his own failure.

John Calvin may have been a great theologian or even a great scholar, but born again regenerated by the Holy Spirit he was not. He was nothing more than a Pharisee. Had he repented of his sin that would've been different.

BTW, I don't read anywhere in scripture where the Apostles murdered or sought to hurt anyone who didn't agree with their doctrine. Jesus is the prince of peace!

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by staysharp

No, I don't like him because..."He that hateth his brother has murder in his heart". This is how we know we have passed from death to life, because we have love for the brethren.

Saul was a murder and a thief. When he was born again, he no longer murdered and he repented of his sin and recognized his own failure.

John Calvin may have been a great theologian or even a great scholar, but born again regenerated by the Holy Spirit he was not. He was nothing more than a Pharisee. Had he repented of his sin that would've been different.

BTW, I don't read anywhere in scripture where the Apostles murdered or sought to hurt anyone who didn't agree with their doctrine. Jesus is the prince of peace!

Well, I don't know much about the man Calvin. So I am going to go read and find out just how bad he really is.

[U376977]

One poster wrote "of his day." So important.....

What would you have done in his day? Where would you come down on issues he dealt with?
**Knee jerk reaction***
Are you sure? How do you know you would not be subject to the culture and predominate thought of the day?
**knee jerk reaction***
More important. How do you know that 500 years from now that good people on a "forum" will look back at YOU and judge you for your ignorance and error. How do you know we are walking in all truth?
**knee jerk reaction**
Do you really think that God has fully revealed the "riches of his grace" when Paul wrote it will take "ages to come." Consider what WE may be lacking? What if some future group comes up with a doctrine they consider salvic? Will they look back at YOU and judge saying, "well they went to hell, too bad but if they really sought God he would have shown even them THE WAY."
**Knee jerk reaction***

It is only the most arrogant who look at history and judge people by current culture and by current theology. Both culture and theology are fluid and will change at the rise of the next figure who comes with "a powerful message." That message will impact...change, be formed into doctrine....become exclusive and corrupt...turn into no relevance....die....Until the rise of the next "progressive" thinker....and on an on.

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by U376977

One poster wrote "of his day." So important.....

What would you have done in his day? Where would you come down on issues he dealt with?
**Knee jerk reaction***
Are you sure? How do you know you would not be subject to the culture and predominate thought of the day?
**knee jerk reaction***
More important. How do you know that 500 years from now that good people on a "forum" will look back at YOU and judge you for your ignorance and error. How do you know we are walking in all truth?
**knee jerk reaction**
Do you really think that God has fully revealed the "riches of his grace" when Paul wrote it will take "ages to come." Consider what WE may be lacking? What if some future group comes up with a doctrine they consider salvic? Will they look back at YOU and judge saying, "well they went to hell, too bad but if they really sought God he would have shown even them THE WAY."
**Knee jerk reaction***

It is only the most arrogant who look at history and judge people by current culture and by current theology. Both culture and theology are fluid and will change at the rise of the next figure who comes with "a powerful message." That message will impact...change, be formed into doctrine....become exclusive and corrupt...turn into no relevance....die....Until the rise of the next "progressive" thinker....and on an on.

uh...murder is murder, hatred is hatred...these are timeless sins which transcend culture, time & evolutionary principles. One does not murder as he moves closer to Christ. Now if you're talking about dress codes...well that's different...lol