The Backside to Submission

[missourimary]

I don't think Biblical submission is anything like what people have made it in some circles. Submission is NOT:
always looking at the ground and never meeting anyone's eyes
allowing abuse of any kind-verbal, emotional, or physical
never saying anything to contradict or question an "authority"

Submission cannot be beaten into a person, does not mean breaking that person's will, and will never be forced.

Submission is completely voluntary, and can only occur when the one submitting truly trusts and respects, and is loved and respected by, the one being submitted to. Because true submission is voluntary, it does not happen between two people who do not consider themselves equals. If there is inequality, there is no need for submission, only leadership. And if there is equality without mutual respect and love, there is no place for submission, but only dictatorship.

[iceniez]

Originally Posted by ILG

If mutual submission should be taught, why is there an emphasis on women submitting to husbands and people submitting to pastors?

I do not know, but I do know that we live in a fallen world and that Husbands and Pastors are human. So with that said I believe the way it is taught with a heavy hand is out of fear.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by iceniez

Look at Ephesians 5:22 - 33 along with the wife submitting. The Husband is told how he should act to her be tender and Love her as his own flesh.

Yeah, but I never heard much of that. I heard a lot about women submitting and how women were not normally submissive. That it was a woman's nature to usurp authority and she needed to work hard spiritually to not be that way. There was little teaching about how a husband should be tender and loving.

Lots of teaching about how people would go their own way and needed the pastors help. Little about how he should serve the church in love.

Now I will step out on a limb and say I think that is an organization wide problem with a few pastors having it right but most heavy-handed on the submission stuff.

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by iceniez

Look at Ephesians 5:22 - 33 along with the wife submitting. The Husband is told how he should act to her be tender and Love her as his own flesh.

Very true. You cannot have submission without love. If a husband loves his wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it, then he will respect her. She can then voluntarily submit in respect for his giving and sacrifice for her.

Ephesians puts a greater responsibility on the man than the woman. The wife is asked to submit, but the man is asked to do all he can, up to and including giving his life for, his wife. So she gives of herself daily, but he is asked to give all of himself daily.

[iceniez]

Originally Posted by ILG

Yeah, but I never heard much of that. I heard a lot about women submitting and how women were not normally submissive. That it was a woman's nature to usurp authority and she needed to work hard spiritually to not be that way. There was little teaching about how a husband should be tender and loving.

Lots of teaching about how people would go their own way and needed the pastors help. Little about how he should serve the church in love.

Now I will step out on a limb and say I think that is an organization wide problem with a few pastors having it right but most heavy-handed on the submission stuff.

I believe you are right.

[iceniez]

Originally Posted by missourimary

Very true. You cannot have submission without love. If a husband loves his wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it, then he will respect her. She can then voluntarily submit in respect for his giving and sacrifice for her.

Ephesians puts a greater responsibility on the man than the woman. The wife is asked to submit, but the man is asked to do all he can, up to and including giving his life for, his wife. So she gives of herself daily, but he is asked to give all of himself daily.

Amen. This kind of Love makes it SAFE to submit to, not out of fear but mutual respect and love.

[Sister Alvear]

I think Bible submission and some men´s ideas of submission is 2 different things...

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by ILG

Now I will step out on a limb and say I think that is an organization wide problem with a few pastors having it right but most heavy-handed on the submission stuff.

When someone is unsure of their position or role, or is uncomfortable in their environment, there can be a tendency toward heavy-handedness no matter what type of group or what setting. That happens even if the group is all one gender, all one age, all one race, and all have fairly equal standing in the community. Look at almost any set of politicians and that becomes blaringly obvious. And the larger the group, the more likely that there will be a pecking order or a dogfight either evident or brewing.

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by coadie

Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end... And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love. (NRSV, 1 Corinthians 13:4-8, 13

3 types of luv

Phileo
Agape
Eros

The "love" being referred to here by Paul is Agape.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Jim H

The "love" being referred to here by Paul is Agape.

There is no reference to eros in the NT. It is the luv that is behind gay marriages. Relationships limited to that won't work out.