John 14:9 is Jesus - God the Father?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

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Oneness people would need to explain the use of the verb ‘to be,’ which a first person plural at John 10:30; ‘I and my Father (we) are one.

Why would we need to explain it anymore than explaining how there is a Father and a Son as subjects? Jesus says we because he refers to both Father and Son.

Secondly, why is the Greek neuter word ‘hen’ for ‘one’ used at John 10:30, rather than the masculine Greek word for “one,” which is ‘heis?’ This masculine word is always used in the Greek, to describe God as ‘one’ in the strictly numeric sense, and so logically it would be the only word which Jesus could use to claim that he is himself really God the Father in an absolute and literal sense. So the neuter word ‘hen,’ just means to be ‘one in agreement’ or to be ‘one in unity’ with another person, it’s used that way at 1st Corinthians 3:8, where Paul planted and Apollos watered so that were one (hen), which doesn’t mean that Paul is claiming that he was Apollos! Paul is just saying that they worked together as a team, but not that they were both the same one person!

That is completely and utterly false. First of all there are places where Hen is used to mean 1 in number and heis is used to mean a unity. Second of all if this is true...if this is really true, then when jesus quoted the Shema he was saying Here oh Israel, the Lord our God the Lord is One in number.

Hen, Heis and Mia are all just different gender forms of the greek number 1

The fact that The SON used the word for 'One' at John 10:30 doesn't prove that he's God, for a number of reasons including the points which you've made. I didn't address this as it's wasn't relevant to my earlier point, but in jewish culture to put your name before somebody elses implied either equality or superiority. So for the Son to say 'I' before 'My Father' was an affirmation of equality with God.

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

The fact that The SON used the word for 'One' at John 10:30 doesn't prove that he's God, for a number of reasons including the points which you've made. I didn't address this as it's wasn't relevant to my earlier point, but in jewish culture to put your name before somebody elses implied either equality or superiority. So for the Son to say 'I' before 'My Father' was an affirmation of equality with God.

Let's look at the passage in context:


24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

The Jews understood Jesus to be referring to Himself as God in this passage.

[sola gratia]

Originally Posted by Chan

Let's look at the passage in context:


24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

The Jews understood Jesus to be referring to Himself as God in this passage.

They did the same thing when Jesus refered to himself as the Son of God, so that has little to do with the claim that Jesus is the Father!

Also Jesus prayed that we would be one as He and His Father are one... so the whole "I and my Father are one" thing may be a little different than some claim it to be huh?

(John 17:22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

oops there's a cog in your little oneness only wheel!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

The fact that The SON used the word for 'One' at John 10:30 doesn't prove that he's God, for a number of reasons including the points which you've made. I didn't address this as it's wasn't relevant to my earlier point, but in jewish culture to put your name before somebody elses implied either equality or superiority. So for the Son to say 'I' before 'My Father' was an affirmation of equality with God.

If what you are saying is true, then the Son was saying Father and Son are the same person....Jews did not accuse him of making himself equal to the second person of the Trinity. The Jews only had one God in One Person, not a Trinity

Originally Posted by sola gratia

They did the same thing when Jesus refered to himself as the Son of God, so that has little to do with the claim that Jesus is the Father!

But I didn't say that Jesus was referring to Himself as the Father, I said the Jews accused Him of saying He was God.

Also Jesus prayed that we would be one as He and His Father are one... so the whole "I and my Father are one" thing may be a little different than some claim it to be huh?

(John 17:22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

oops there's a cog in your little oneness only wheel!

First, I'm not oneness. Second, even the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed says Jesus is "of one essence with the Father" and that statement appears not all that long after the very same Creed said "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty...

[sola gratia]

Originally Posted by Chan

But I didn't say that Jesus was referring to Himself as the Father, I said the Jews accused Him of saying He was God.

First, I'm not oneness. Second, even the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed says Jesus is "of one essence with the Father" and that statement appears not all that long after the very same Creed said "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty...

Okay, well Trinitarians do believe that God is one, however they note an eternal distinction between Father and Son. The same essence? Absolutely! However it is scripturally incorrect to read “my Father and I are one” as some sort of anti-trinitarian proof text, as noted by John 17:22… Jesus prayed that we would be one, as the He and the Father are one. This gives us an explanation and indication to manner of which Jesus and the Father are one. But SOME oneness Pentecostals never deal with this, they quote away in an irresponsible manner without considering the entire WORD. This is an error to formulate doctrine in this manner. We must consider the whole counsel of God.

Originally Posted by sola gratia

Okay, well Trinitarians do believe that God is one, however they note an eternal distinction between Father and Son. The same essence? Absolutely! However it is scripturally incorrect to read “my Father and I are one” as some sort of anti-trinitarian proof text, as noted by John 17:22… Jesus prayed that we would be one, as the He and the Father are one. This gives us an explanation and indication to manner of which Jesus and the Father are one. But SOME oneness Pentecostals never deal with this, they quote away in an irresponsible manner without considering the entire WORD. This is an error to formulate doctrine in this manner. We must consider the whole counsel of God.

Yes, it's true that the passage is not really an anti-trinitarian passage because we trinitarians also believe in one God. Of course, I think the reason they use it as a proof text is that they really do think trinitarians believe in three Gods. I obviously agree that there are distinctions between the Father the Son but I'm not so sure the distinctions are distinctions of divinity since that would mean more than one divine essence.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by sola gratia

Okay, well Trinitarians do believe that God is one, however they note an eternal distinction between Father and Son. The same essence? Absolutely! However it is scripturally incorrect to read “my Father and I are one” as some sort of anti-trinitarian proof text, as noted by John 17:22… Jesus prayed that we would be one, as the He and the Father are one. This gives us an explanation and indication to manner of which Jesus and the Father are one. But SOME oneness Pentecostals never deal with this, they quote away in an irresponsible manner without considering the entire WORD. This is an error to formulate doctrine in this manner. We must consider the whole counsel of God.

This is rather vague, which most Trinitarians usually are when they say this. What in the world does "God is one" mean? what does "One God" mean? How come Trinitarians often, not all, but often say Deut 6:4 the word echad means compound unity, not one in number and yet insist there is just 1 God?

What does a Trinitarian mean when they say "one"?

I hear them say often "three in one"...that is so vague it does not define what the Trinity is. I am always refreshed and amazed to find a Trinitarian that actually defines what they believe rather than using the usual buzz terms as I am when a Oneness person does it.

God is one what? One person? One in Unity? One in essence? One being? One nature? One mind and will?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by sola gratia

Okay, well Trinitarians do believe that God is one, however they note an eternal distinction between Father and Son. The same essence? Absolutely! However it is scripturally incorrect to read “my Father and I are one” as some sort of anti-trinitarian proof text, as noted by John 17:22… Jesus prayed that we would be one, as the He and the Father are one. This gives us an explanation and indication to manner of which Jesus and the Father are one. But SOME oneness Pentecostals never deal with this, they quote away in an irresponsible manner without considering the entire WORD. This is an error to formulate doctrine in this manner. We must consider the whole counsel of God.

Oh, BTW this line of reasoning assumes Jesus was referring to what He said back in chapter 10. The word "one" might be present, but that does not mean the grammar and intent on teaching is the same.

The topic and context of John 10 is a separate one from where Jesus started His discussion with His disciples as well as a different audience and a different question