Shortly Come to Pass and the Error of Preterism

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Revelationist

How do you explain away the third verse?

Rev 1:3
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
KJV

"For the time is at hand" is the same language that John the Baptist used to anounce the soon coming of Christ.

For the time is at hand for what? All things to be fulfilled in the next 50 years or so?

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
KJV

In verse seven John says that those that pierced him would see him when he come in what he saw to bring judgement.

Could this not be referring to the Jews as a nation? Can anyone identify historically when every eye really did see him and when all those that crucified him saw him and all kindreds of the earth wailed becaue of him? when did that happen historically and what are the historical accounts?

R

ev 11:1


Revelation 11
11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
KJV

The temple was evidently still standing when John seen his Revelation.

Because he was told in a prophetic vision to measure the temple? Was he measuring the actual temple, walking around or was he having a vision?

Rev 17:10
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
KJV

Five kings had already fallen when John received his Revelation. One was on the throne, and there was one more to come and he would be only a short time.

Yes, I natually would assume the time was short.

it says he would CONTINUE for a short time, meaning his reign was short...that does not mean in just a few years from John seeing this vision this king would arise

Originally Posted by Berkeley

how about....


Pan Trib: what is really cooking?

...everyone that disagrees with my "end time prophecy" ideas...

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by Ronzo

...everyone that disagrees with my "end time prophecy" ideas...

that's not a good label....

[Revelationist]

Rev 22:6
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
KJV

Again John says the time is short... but I assume that you use the same interpetation as verse one?

Rev 22:7
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
KJV

But, behold... John once more confirms what appears to be something that will happen soon, when he says that He will come quickly.

Rev 22:10
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
KJV

The time is at hand... anything with in reach is at hand. Things that are not within reach are not at hand... 2000 years later was not at hand for John.

Rev 22:12
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
KJV

The message is urgent.

And once more.. I would say it appears that the message is urgent on when it's going to happen.

Rev 22:21
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
KJV

[Revelationist]

Where else does the Bible point to a time frame?

Acts 2:16
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
KJV

Peter in his sermon preached what appears to be a message of what is happening on the day of Pentecost. He told those that were gathered there, that this is what Joel phrophesied about. What did Joel phrophecy about?

Acts 2:19-21
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
KJV

Joel seen the what John saw in the book of Revelation was taking place, starting n the day of Pentecost and finished in 70 AD at the destruction of the Old Covenent Church.

[Revelationist]

Matthew 26:63 - 64

In Matthew 26:63 - 64, the High Priest was told by Jesus, that he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds.

John 21:20 - 23

And lastly, John was told that he would live to see the coming of the Lord. His disciples thought that John would never die, but do you see a 2000 year old man running around? Here's a list of the currently living (top 10) men, and I don't seen John on the list.

The oldest men currently living (top 10)

# Name Current age Born Residence
1 Tomoji Tanabe 111 years 217 days September 18, 1895 Oldest man in the world (since 24 January 2007). Lives in Miyazaki, Japan
2 Sukesaburo Nakanishi 111 years 38 days March 15, 1896 Lives in Japan
3 Henry Allingham 110 years 320 days June 6, 1896 Lives in the UK. WWI Veteran
tie George Francis 110 years 320 days June 6, 1896 Lives in California, USA
5 Walter Breuning 110 years 213 days September 21, 1896 Lives in Montana, USA
6 Augusto Oliveira Moreira 110 years 198 days October 6, 1896 Lives in Portugal
7 Walter H. Seward 110 years 191 days October 13, 1896 Lives in New Jersey, USA
8 Elias Wen 110 years 154 days November 19, 1896 Lives in California, USA
9 Nicholas Kao Se Tseien 110 years 97 days January 15, 1897 Lives in Hong Kong
10 Aimé Avignon 110 years 79 days February 2, 1897 Lives in France


So when will these things be? The disciples expected them to happen in their lifetime. Were they mistaken? If they were mistaken, can we trust anything that they wrote? Did Jesus make a mistake? That would make him just a man. Maybe we have just so much from our prophecy teachers that we've misunderstood what was fixing to happen. Did Revelation happen in their lifetime?

Revelationist...

Did you read carefully the first post of this thread?

[mfblume]

"EN" is not the word in question. "Tachos" is. And EN is only a preoposition that prefixes the term TACHOS which makes the english word IN HASTE in the sense of time. You are wrong from the very start, Bro Strange. You are taking the term EN and definining it and finding how it is used elsewhere in the New Testament. But that is totally incorrect. You must take the COMBINATION OF "EN TACHOS" and THEN find the ways the word is used. So your entire argument is severely flawed to begin with.

The greek is actually "EN TACHOS". And every time those two terms are used together, with preoposition EN prefixing TACHOS, we find HASTE in the sense of TIME.

Here are ALL the places the two terms are used together. EN is designated by Strong's number 1722, and TACHOS is Strongs' number 5034. We must find instances of the greek term where BOTH WORDS ARE INDICATED by 1722 and 5034. YOU HAVE NOT DONE THAT.

Notice that in Rev 1:1 as well as all the cases of the same terms used that I indicated before, you read the TWO NUMBERS TOGETHER 1722 and 5034. THAT IS the necessary combination we require in order to CORRECTLY assess the meaning of SHORTLY. What Brpo Strange has done was to take ONLY THE PREFIX and try to find how it is used, when the very definition of the term SHORTLY says the ter,m "EN" is only a preoposition!!!
Bro Strange ONLY TOOK THE PREFIX "EN" from the entire term "EN TACHOS".

Revelation 1:1 uses the greek terms "en tachei" (TWO TERMS TOGETHER) and translates the COMBINATION OF THEM as "SHORTLY". It is severe error to only take the preposition "EN" and neglect to maintain the term "TACHOS".

Here are ALL the verses in the entire New Testament that use the COMBINATION of the two greek terms that Bro Strange failed to realize are the only verses we can use.

Luk 18:8 KJV+ I tell3004 you5213 that3754 he will avenge4160, 1557 them846 speedily.1722, 5034 Nevertheless4133 when the3588 Son5207 of man444 cometh,2064 shall(687) he find2147 faith4102 on1909 the3588 earth?1093

Act 12:7 KJV+ And,2532 behold,2400 the angel32 of the Lord2962 came upon2186 him, and2532 a light5457 shined2989 in1722 the3588 prison:3612 and1161 he smote3960 Peter4074 on the3588 side,4125 and raised him up,1453, 846 saying,3004 Arise up450 quickly.1722, 5034 And2532 his846 chains254 fell off1601 from1537 his hands.5495

Act 22:18 KJV+ And2532 saw1492 him846 saying3004 unto me,3427 Make haste,4692 and2532 get1831 thee quickly1722, 5034 out of1537 Jerusalem:2419 for1360 they will not3756 receive3858 thy4675 testimony3141 concerning4012 me.1700

Act 25:4 KJV+ But3767 (3303) Festus5347 answered,611 that Paul3972 should be kept5083 at1722 Caesarea,2542 and1161 that he himself1438 would3195 depart1607 shortly1722, 5034 thither.

Rom 16:20 KJV+ And1161 the3588 God2316 of peace1515 shall bruise4937 Satan4567 under5259 your2257 feet4228 shortly.1722, 5034 The3588 grace5485 of our2257 Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ5547 be with3326 you.5216 Amen.281


Rev 1:1 KJV+ The Revelation602 of Jesus2424 Christ,5547 which3739 God2316 gave1325 unto him,846 to show1166 unto his848 servants1401 things which3739 must1163 shortly1722, 5034 come to pass;1096 and2532 he sent649 and signified4591 it by1223 his848 angel32 unto his848 servant1401 John:2491

Rev 22:6 KJV+ And2532 he said2036 unto me,3427 These3778 sayings3056 are faithful4103 and2532 true:228 and2532 the Lord2962 God2316 of the3588 holy40 prophets4396 sent649 his848 angel32 to show1166 unto his848 servants1401 the things which3739 must1163 shortly1722, 5034 be done.1096

When you said that Mary's pregnancy was associated with the term EN, you SHOWED YOUR ENTIRE ERROR OF REASONING! "EN" IS NOT THE TERM IN AND OF ITSELF THAT WE ARE DISCUSSING. WE ARE DISCUSSING "EN TACHOS". I do not think you deceived anyone, as you claim I did, but you are severealy unaware of the Greek preposition EN only PREFIXING TACHOS. So in order to properly represent the meaning of the words SHORTLY, you cannot just take EN, but must take the COMBINATION OF "EN TACHOS" together. AND IN EVERY CASE it is a matter of TIME ALONE that is the issue.

There are no other words in the entire New Testament that use the same combination of EN and TACHOS together than what I have shown above. And anyone can see quite plainly that in each and every case of the COMBINATION OF TERMS, the sense is most definitely TIME.

TRY AGAIN.

[SDG]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Apokaluyiv Ihsou Xristou, hn edwken (5656) autw o qeov, deicai toiv douloiv autou a dei (5904) genesqai (5635) en taxei, kai eshmanen (5656) aposteilav (5660) dia tou aggelou autou tw doulw autou Iwannh,

Tachos

2. speed

Translated Words KJV (7) - quickly + (1722), 2; shortly + (1722), 4; speedily + (1722), 1; NAS (7) - quickly, 3; shortly, 1; soon, 3

[SDG]

en is a preposition ... not a prefix.