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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #261  
Old 04-27-2007, 04:26 PM
Chan
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Originally Posted by brad2723 View Post
I acknowledge that...
"God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." [Genesis 1:27]

"God said, it is not good that man should be alone; i will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field...and brought them to Adam...but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him." [Genesis 2:18-20]

Because no help meet was found from the beast of the field that "the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept...the Lord god had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man." [Genesis 2:21-22].
Okay, that's a start. Now, notice that God brought a woman to Adam and not a man.



Quote:
I acknowledge that...
A covenant relationship between male and female is acceptable in God's sight but I do not believe He divinely designed it as the only possible covenant relationship.

"Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul." [I Samuel 18:3]

"Saul said to David, thou shalt this day be my son in law in the one of the twain (twice)...And Saul gave him (David) Michal his daughter to wife." [I Samuel 18:20,21]

"Jonathan made a covenant with the house of Daivd...because he loved hiim: for he loved him as he loved his own soul." [I Samuel 20:16,17]

David said of Jonathan, "thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." [II Samuel 1:26]
Since it was a woman that God brought to Adam and not a man, isn't that at least suggestive that this was God's created design for male and female? Further, what about what Jesus said in Mark 10:6-8 where he quoted from Genesis? "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh." This is the institution of marriage and it is an opposite-sex marriage. The phrase "for this cause" (being quoted from Genesis 2:24) refers back to Genesis 2:23 where Adam said after being given the woman, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

As for your attempt to interpret the relationship between Jonathan and David as a homosexual one, you really don't want to go there. Even if you could make that argument, you have to admit that it is still contrary to God's created design for male and female as told to us in Genesis 2 and as affirmed by Jesus in Mark 10. Further, not all covenant relationships are marriages.


Quote:
I cannot say with certainty what the orientation of Adam and Eve were but I would agree that they were attracted to each other which would indicate their orientation was heterosexual in nature.
Would it be easier for you if we very narrowly defined "orientation" as the gender object of sexual/romantic attraction?



Quote:
I think I would be comfortable acknowledging this to be true. I would point out, however, that many things that did not exist prior to Adam's fall and that those things are not sinful because they are the result of his fall.
That's true but in separating out homosexual attraction from homosexual sin, let's be clear that the attraction is still contrary to God's created design for male and female.



Quote:
I acknowledge that...
Matthew's account of Christ's teachings suggests that if a man looks at a woman with lust in his heart then he has comitted adultery (Matt 5:28).

"When lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:15)
So, whenever you look at another man lustfully, you are committing adultery with him in your heart.



Quote:
I acknowledge that...

Fornication, as defined by Strong's (NT:4202), means: as harlotry (including adultery and incest); and figuratively as idolatry.
So, how would you classify sexual activity outside of opposite-sex marriage, e.g. an unmarried heterosexual couple shacking up together and having sex?
  #262  
Old 04-27-2007, 04:26 PM
HeavenlyOne HeavenlyOne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad2723 View Post

"Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul." [I Samuel 18:3]

"Saul said to David, thou shalt this day be my son in law in the one of the twain (twice)...And Saul gave him (David) Michal his daughter to wife." [I Samuel 18:20,21]

"Jonathan made a covenant with the house of Daivd...because he loved hiim: for he loved him as he loved his own soul." [I Samuel 20:16,17]

David said of Jonathan, "thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." [II Samuel 1:26]
I certainly hope you are not suggesting that David and Jonathan had a sexual relationship or even an intimate one.
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  #263  
Old 04-27-2007, 04:27 PM
Chan
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Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne View Post
Regardless, the point is that just because Jewish law mentioned sin doesn't mean it was exclusively for Jews. The Jewish law didn't even exist in the time of Sodom and Gomorrah, but something had to be said by God for those people to be judged for their sins.
Which tells us that God has other laws besides those He gave to Moses on Mount Sinai.
  #264  
Old 04-27-2007, 04:28 PM
Chan
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Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne View Post
I certainly hope you are not suggesting that David and Jonathan had a sexual relationship or even an intimate one.
I believe that is what he is suggesting. When I was preaching gay theology, I suggested even worse.
  #265  
Old 04-27-2007, 04:30 PM
HeavenlyOne HeavenlyOne is offline
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Originally Posted by brad2723 View Post
I didn't see what you stated, but here are quotes from that site.

Quote:
Here’s what we do know: If you ask experts at medical centers how often a child is born so noticeably atypical in terms of genitalia that a specialist in sex differentiation is called in, the number comes out to about 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 births.

Below we provide a summary of statistics drawn from an article by Brown University researcher Anne Fausto-Sterling.2 The basis for that article was an extensive review of the medical literature from 1955 to 1998 aimed at producing numeric estimates for the frequency of sex variations. Note that the frequency of some of these conditions, such as congenital adrenal hyperplasia, differs for different populations. These statistics are approximations.
Not XX and not XY one in 1,666 births
Klinefelter (XXY) one in 1,000 births
Androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 13,000 births
Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 130,000 births
Classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia one in 13,000 births
Late onset adrenal hyperplasia one in 66 individuals
Vaginal agenesis one in 6,000 births
Ovotestes one in 83,000 births
Idiopathic (no discernable medical cause) one in 110,000 births
Iatrogenic (caused by medical treatment, for instance progestin administered to pregnant mother) no estimate
5 alpha reductase deficiency no estimate
Mixed gonadal dysgenesis no estimate
Complete gonadal dysgenesis one in 150,000 births
Hypospadias (urethral opening in perineum or along penile shaft) one in 2,000 births
Hypospadias (urethral opening between corona and tip of glans penis) one in 770 births
Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births
Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance one or two in 1,000 births
Your 1:100 stat that you quoted wasn't accurate, as seen by the above stats.
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  #266  
Old 04-27-2007, 04:31 PM
HeavenlyOne HeavenlyOne is offline
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Originally Posted by Chan View Post
I believe that is what he is suggesting. When I was preaching gay theology, I suggested even worse.
Oh boy....
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  #267  
Old 04-27-2007, 04:31 PM
Chan
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Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind View Post
And for about 9000 years it was referred to as "a sodomite" for no real reason?
Earth did not exist for 9000 years. "Sodomite" is an English word and English has not existed as a language for that long. Further, you will not find that the Hebrew word used in the Old Testament for "sodomite" has any reference whatsoever to Sodom or the people of Sodom.
  #268  
Old 04-27-2007, 04:32 PM
HeavenlyOne HeavenlyOne is offline
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Originally Posted by Chan View Post
Which tells us that God has other laws besides those He gave to Moses on Mount Sinai.
I agree, and I believe that those laws apply to use today.
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  #269  
Old 04-27-2007, 04:35 PM
Chan
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Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne View Post
I agree, and I believe that those laws apply to use today.
That is one of the points I've been trying to get Brad to see.
  #270  
Old 04-27-2007, 04:37 PM
HeavenlyOne HeavenlyOne is offline
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Originally Posted by Chan View Post
That is one of the points I've been trying to get Brad to see.
I'm hoping you can help him. You have skills in this area that I lack, so I don't think I'm much of a help here.
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