Change After Water Baptism?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

I would have to say when I sincerely repented, and asked forgiveness of my sins was when I knew assuredly that Jesus came into my heart and I was born from above.

I felt a lot of emotions after asking Jesus Christ into my heart, not just then, but over the years. I was later baptized using the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost wording in a lake. I did not consider myself any more saved after the baptism than I was before the baptism. A few months later I was baptized in Jesus' Name. I did not consider myself any more saved after that baptism than I was before the baptism. Water baptism does not save, it does not cleanse, it is the answer/response of a clear conscience with God. The old person that we once were is dead and we now have new life (Jesus --the Holy Spirit--- within) so we publicly display the burial of that "old man" in a watery grave and we publicly display the new resurrection life of the "new man" by coming up out of that watery grave.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Sam

I felt a lot of emotions after asking Jesus Christ into my heart, not just then, but over the years. I was later baptized using the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost wording in a lake. I did not consider myself any more saved after the baptism than I was before the baptism. A few months later I was baptized in Jesus' Name. I did not consider myself any more saved after that baptism than I was before the baptism. Water baptism does not save, it does not cleanse, it is the answer/response of a clear conscience with God. The old person that we once were is dead and we now have new life (Jesus --the Holy Spirit--- within) so we publicly display the burial of that "old man" in a watery grave and we publicly display the new resurrection life of the "new man" by coming up out of that watery grave.

This is such a ridiculous theological twist and denial on one scripture as one could ever see! Sam your a nice guy and all but seriously 1+1=3 for you!

Baptism doth now save us!

Sam: no it doesn't

The answer Sam, of a good conscience is so that you can offer your sacrifice in good conscience due to your response to his Word.

Jesus clearly talked about one cannot partake in sacrifice until one is consciously responded wholeheartedly to God's desire and view of what one should do before sacrifice. You cannot offer yourself unless in whole. To turn to God in baptism(sacrifice) it must be with complete and with total turning.

Reconcile in Matt 5:24

1) to change
2) to change the mind of anyone, to reconcile
3) to be reconciled, to renew friendship with one

Which is repent! To turn or change! Unless one is changed totaly in the direction and comes with proper intent it means nothing! Repentance and Baptism are clearly seen in the following verse when one understands baptism is the place of sacrifice and you are uniting yourself with his sacrifice thus your gift is yourself.

Mat 5:23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

You cannot be baptized and united in sacrifice UNTIL you have turned(repented). When you turn toward the alter and Christ's sacrifice in baptism and away from the world and your flesh you have responded then in good conscience. A response of good conscience does not mean you are saved yet but brought to the alter with proper wholehearted appeal. Repenting is always seen as a proper response to God. Repentance though is not UNITING yourself with Christ's sacrifice/blood/atonement. Romans 6 is clear that we are united with him and his death/sacrifice in baptism! Thus the basic meaning of the scripture. One should look and see if anything is holding him back from true repentance before one can obtain sacrifice/atonement with Christ. Repentance only brings your to the sacrifice it is not in itself THE sacrifice. It brings your face to face with him but you still have to be united with him and his work in baptism.

Should one feel good about repenting? Yes! Should one feel good in baptism? Yes! Should one feel good about receiving the HS? Yes! As they ALL are proper responses to God and his response to you.

Repentance and Baptism are clearly a complete motion! Turn(repent) and be united/converted(baptized)! Acts 2:38

The old person that we once were is dead and we now have new life

ONe does die in repentance it does not mean you have been united with HIS DEATH/SACRIFICE/BLOOD YET! Where is that Baptism Romans 6! When one turns(repents) it is turning to baptism(atonement of Christ)

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Sam

I felt a lot of emotions after asking Jesus Christ into my heart, not just then, but over the years. I was later baptized using the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost wording in a lake. I did not consider myself any more saved after the baptism than I was before the baptism. A few months later I was baptized in Jesus' Name. I did not consider myself any more saved after that baptism than I was before the baptism. Water baptism does not save, it does not cleanse, it is the answer/response of a clear conscience with God. The old person that we once were is dead and we now have new life (Jesus --the Holy Spirit--- within) so we publicly display the burial of that "old man" in a watery grave and we publicly display the new resurrection life of the "new man" by coming up out of that watery grave.

What you are saying contradicts scripture. Let's see what the bible has to say about NT water baptism and its purpose...

REMISSION OF SINS
=================
1 John 5:8 - And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

How does water and blood agree in one? Let's see if the bible shows a relationship b/n water and blood...

Must get remission of sins - Matthew 26:28 - For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Remission of Sins is only through the name - Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. - not "has" but "shall" receive - future tense - kinda like the following speaking of future tense...

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Where did Peter get remission of sins through the name? From Jesus of course...

Jesus taught remission of sins in his name - Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

How is Remission of Sins through the name? - Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In Acts 2:38, Peter told them - repent and be baptized - who? - everyone of you - how? - in the name of Jesus Christ - why? - for the remission of sins - and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Biblical definition of remission = washing away of sins - Acts 22:16 - And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Was Paul's sins washed away at his baptism or not? Come on now!

If a sinner had all of his past sins remitted or washed away, do you think it would give him a good conscience towards God? It seems that Peter in his epistle thought so...

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Water baptism alone does not save, but it is definitely part of the NT born again process as Jesus also taught.

Noah and his family were saved by water in the ark because the water washed away the sins and wickedness of the world - just like NT water baptism in the name of Jesus is for the remission or washing away of sins, giving one a good conscience towards God

Conscience show and agrees with the rest of scripture that it is about the remission or washing away of sins; and when all of one's past sins have been remitted or washed away it WILL give a person a good conscience towards God

God's word and not man's word - NT water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is for the remission or washing away of sins - giving one a good conscience towards God

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Baptisms - PLURAL - are part of the foundational principles of the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. Its NOT something after the foundation has been laid that is built on top of the foundation, but baptisms are part of the foundational principles of the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. Jesus taught water and Spirit baptism. If you want to fight about this, then you are fighting against truth.

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Glory to God for his unchanging truth and for strong apostolic ministers who do not forsake their spiritual heritage and the doctrine of Christ!

[Jermyn Davidson]

I simply disagree with you.

I am saved by Grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

As a result of that God-given faith, a person must be baptized in order to be obedient to the scriptures. Their baptism should be performed calling on the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost-- Jesus Christ.

That same person should seek out the In-filling of the Holy Ghost, with the experience of speaking in tongues under the divine inspiration of God.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by 1399

I simply disagree with you.

I am saved by Grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

As a result of that God-given faith, a person must be baptized in order to be obedient to the scriptures. Their baptism should be performed calling on the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost-- Jesus Christ.

That same person should seek out the In-filling of the Holy Ghost, with the experience of speaking in tongues under the divine inspiration of God.

Paul wrote in Ephesians, to the saints (those already saved - Eph 1:1) at Ephesus, that they were saved by grace through faith and not of works...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Paul wrote that to the church in Ephesus - let's see what Paul did with some he found in Ephesus...

Now Paul in Ephesus in Acts 19:1-6 found John's disciples and corrected them and re-baptized them in the name of Jesus and they rec'd the Holy Ghost

Were they in Ephesus in Acts 19 saved by grace through faith and not of works? Yes they were...They were saved by grace in that what Jesus did on the cross, we did not deserve

And through their faith they obeyed Paul and were re-baptized in the name of Jesus and they rec'd the Holy Ghost

In Acts 19 at Ephesus with Paul, they were saved by grace through faith, just like the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles

In Acts 19 at Ephesus with Paul, they were not saved by the works of the OT law, just like Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles weren't either

There you have it - apostolic doctrine contains salvation by grace through faith and not of works

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Works = works of the law

Eph 2:9 - works - ergon - er'-gon - From ?????? ergo? (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

Every where you see "works of the law" in the NT the greek word for works is ergon - just like in Eph 2:9

Works of the law - works = ergon - Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Deeds of the law - deeds = ergon - Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Another reason we know that "works" in Eph 2:9 is the works of the law is in the context of Eph 2...

Eph 2:10 We are his workman ship
Eph 2:11 says Wherefore remember... - or because of everything i just said, remember...
Eph 2:12 you were lost...
Eph 2:13 but now you are in christ jesus...
Eph 2:14 For... = in greek, assigning a reason for what was said before...
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

To paraphrase - Eph 2:10-15 - We are his workmanship...Wherefore remember...you were lost...but now you are in Jesus...For what he did...Having abolished...the law

The CONTEXT of Eph 2:8-15 shows that works in Eph 2:9 = works of the OT law

Many times in scripture Paul contrasted the 2 belief systems - OT works of the law and the NT belief system of faith in Jesus

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by 1399

I simply disagree with you.

I am saved by Grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

As a result of that God-given faith, a person must be baptized in order to be obedient to the scriptures. Their baptism should be performed calling on the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost-- Jesus Christ.

That same person should seek out the In-filling of the Holy Ghost, with the experience of speaking in tongues under the divine inspiration of God.

Concerning baptism must be in a singular name and NT baptism's purpose...

REMISSION OF SINS
=================
1 John 5:8 - And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

How does water and blood agree in one? Let's see if the bible shows a relationship b/n water and blood...

Must get remission of sins - Matthew 26:28 - For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Remission of Sins is only through the name - Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. - not "has" but "shall" receive - future tense - kinda like the following speaking of future tense...

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Where did Peter get remission of sins through the name? From Jesus of course...

Jesus taught remission of sins in his name - Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

How is Remission of Sins through the name? - Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In Acts 2:38, Peter told them - repent and be baptized - who? - everyone of you - how? - in the name of Jesus Christ - why? - for the remission of sins - and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Biblical definition of remission = washing away of sins - Acts 22:16 - And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Was Paul's sins washed away at his baptism or not? Come on now!

If a sinner had all of his past sins remitted or washed away, do you think it would give him a good conscience towards God? It seems that Peter in his epistle thought so...

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Water baptism alone does not save, but it is definitely part of the NT born again process as Jesus also taught.

Noah and his family were saved by water in the ark because the water washed away the sins and wickedness of the world - just like NT water baptism in the name of Jesus is for the remission or washing away of sins, giving one a good conscience towards God

Conscience show and agrees with the rest of scripture that it is about the remission or washing away of sins; and when all of one's past sins have been remitted or washed away it WILL give a person a good conscience towards God

God's word and not man's word - NT water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is for the remission or washing away of sins - giving one a good conscience towards God

Paul understood that people must be baptized in a name - 1 Cor 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

Who was crucified for you? Jesus. Whose NAME should you be baptized in? Jesus. Remission of sins is ONLY through the name.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Baptisms - PLURAL - are part of the foundational principles of the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. Its NOT something after the foundation has been laid that is built on top of the foundation, but baptisms are part of the foundational principles of the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. Jesus taught water and Spirit baptism. If you want to fight about this, then you are fighting against truth.

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by 1399

I simply disagree with you.

I am saved by Grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

As a result of that God-given faith, a person must be baptized in order to be obedient to the scriptures. Their baptism should be performed calling on the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost-- Jesus Christ.

That same person should seek out the In-filling of the Holy Ghost, with the experience of speaking in tongues under the divine inspiration of God.

Concerning where the titles came from...

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century." - Britanica Encyclopedia. 11th Ed., Vol.3, pp.365, 366; Also The change, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol.2, pp.263

Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text of Matthew 28:19. "The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome." The Trinity baptism and text of Matthew 28:19 therefore did not originate from the original Church that started in Jerusalem around AD 33. It was rather as the evidence proves a later invention of Roman Catholicism completely fabricated. Very few know about these historical facts.

"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius: Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to this eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19 "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsover I have commanded you." That "Name" is Jesus.

Matthew 28:19 - Eusebius of Caesarea (~275 – May 30, 339), bishop of Caesarea in Palestine and is often referred to as the father of church history because of his work in recording the history of the early Christian church Some 17 times in his works prior to Nicea (325 AD Catholic Trinitarian Council), Eusebius quotes Matthew 28:19 as "Go and make disciples of all nations in my name" without mentioning the Trinity baptism command.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, the Britanica Encyclopedia, the Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Eusebius Bishop of Caesarea, Luke 24:47, the book of Acts, and Paul in 1 Cor 1:13-14 all testify as witnesses of the early Catholic's changing NT water baptism from the word of God to the words of men - from the name of Jesus Christ - to the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century." - Britanica Encyclopedia. 11th Ed., Vol.3, pp.365, 366; Also The change, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol.2, pp.263

Romans 1:25 - Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Notice that those who changed the truth of God into a lie, worship and serve the creature more than the creator - but notice they still worship and serve the creator

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

By 70-75 AD a New or NeoChristian Church was produced which was in a Greek dress of Hellenism and went on to become the Catholic Church - O.W. Heick, A History of Christian Thought, Vol. 1, Fortress Press, Pa., 1965, 1st ed., p.46; Adolf Harnack, What is Christiannity, NY, Harper, 1957, p.221

In John's life time, they started baptizing WITHOUT the name.

That is why in Revelations Jesus praised some churches for NOT DENYING HIS NAME. How could a church DENY his name? By removing it from NT water baptism and using the Catholic trinitarian titles.

[jaxfam6]

Originally Posted by 1399

I simply disagree with you.

I am saved by Grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

As a result of that God-given faith, a person must be baptized in order to be obedient to the scriptures. Their baptism should be performed calling on the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost-- Jesus Christ.

That same person should seek out the In-filling of the Holy Ghost, with the experience of speaking in tongues under the divine inspiration of God.

I agree

I think that we have for to long been afraid of this truth. I know that works don't save us. I know that faith without works is dead. I know that we need to born of water and of spirit. Those things do not save us though.
When we believe on Jesus and his ability to save us that is our faith. His grace then saves us. We follow through with the other things because we see His example, follow it, and show an outward sign of our faith by doing so.

Just a thought but is the infilling of the Holy Ghost what makes a peculiar people? By being filled with the Holy Ghost we have seperated ourselves from the world. Doesn't mean we do not live in the world just says that we are different from the world. By having the Holy Ghost we live differently than the world. We do not act like the world. We are marked as His.

[U376977]

Originally Posted by Sam

I felt a lot of emotions after asking Jesus Christ into my heart, not just then, but over the years. I was later baptized using the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost wording in a lake. I did not consider myself any more saved after the baptism than I was before the baptism. A few months later I was baptized in Jesus' Name. I did not consider myself any more saved after that baptism than I was before the baptism. Water baptism does not save, it does not cleanse, it is the answer/response of a clear conscience with God. The old person that we once were is dead and we now have new life (Jesus --the Holy Spirit--- within) so we publicly display the burial of that "old man" in a watery grave and we publicly display the new resurrection life of the "new man" by coming up out of that watery grave.

Sam, this is so true. I think if we have more teaching like this we would not have people being baptized multiple times trying to capture a feeling or gain victory over sin. The water has its place but I think many apostolics have elevated it FAR ABOVE the actual place soterialogically.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by U376977

Sam, this is so true. I think if we have more teaching like this we would not have people being baptized multiple times trying to capture a feeling or gain victory over sin. The water has its place but I think many apostolics have elevated it FAR ABOVE the actual place soterialogically.

soterialogically?

Keep it simple - write or speak to your audience level.

Jesus spoke in terms that simple fisher men and farmers could understand.

Some might get the idea that you are trying to impress others with your big words.

Just some thoughts.