Jesus' Second Coming?

[mfblume]

Speaking of the RIGHT HAND position, which is a KINGDOM position (hence the judgment aspect), it is not the second coming that brings the KINGDOM, but rather the resurrection and ascension into Heaven. The Kingdom was preached since John when Law ended (law doesn't end at His coming), and the Kingdom CAME when Christ sat on the right hand throne when He ascended. This is enlightening, because the various views of the Kingdom relationship to His coming are so diverse from one another, which perhaps exposes the true litmus test for determining which doctrine is correct. Which one lines up with the fact that the Kingdom has Christ on the "Right Hand" throne ever since His ascension without need for any other kingdom issue to occur?

[Raven]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Speaking of the RIGHT HAND position, which is a KINGDOM position (hence the judgment aspect), it is not the second coming that brings the KINGDOM, but rather the resurrection and ascension into Heaven. The Kingdom was preached since John when Law ended (law doesn't end at His coming), and the Kingdom CAME when Christ sat on the right hand throne when He ascended. This is enlightening, because the various views of the Kingdom relationship to His coming are so diverse from one another, which perhaps exposes the true litmus test for determining which doctrine is correct. Which one lines up with the fact that the Kingdom has Christ on the "Right Hand" throne ever since His ascension without need for any other kingdom issue to occur?

There you go!

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Don't talk to me about it. lol. We loved El Campo, and finances were too strained, though. The US recession hit the situation hard. Back in the great white north.

Hmm. Not into suffering with Christ?

[Jeffrey]

Mt 16
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father and will judge all people according to their deeds. 28 And I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.”

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Mt 16
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father and will judge all people according to their deeds. 28 And I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.”

...a very preterite passage.

The context of the words before this speaks of taking up our crosses and denying ourselves. Jesus scolded Peter for averting the cross. Jesus said if we seek to save our lives we will lose them. And this statement you quote shows HOW THOSE STANDING THERE WOULD LOSE THEIR LIVES shoudl they refuse to deny themselves.

They'd die with the rest of Jerusalem when Rome came down.

[Jeffrey]

What if this passage in Matthew 16:28 is referring to Peter, James and John, the three who literally see His glory in 17:1-13? What if it's not an eschatological clue at all?

After recent contemplation, I go more for that. Peter, James and John shared some unique moments with Jesus, including being the only ones that saw Jesus bring Jairius's daughter back to life. Both wrote about the Transfiguration (James did not, but he was martyred early, so we assume this is probably why). Both would play crucial roles in the early Church, and would need to see the "joy set before them" so that they may endure their own crosses.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

What if this passage in Matthew 16:28 is referring to Peter, James and John, the three who literally see His glory in 17:1-13? What if it's not an eschatological clue at all?

After recent contemplation, I go more for that. Peter, James and John shared some unique moments with Jesus, including being the only ones that saw Jesus bring Jairius's daughter back to life. Both wrote about the Transfiguration (James did not, but he was martyred early, so we assume this is probably why). Both would play crucial roles in the early Church, and would need to see the "joy set before them" so that they may endure their own crosses.

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father and will judge all people according to their deeds. 28 And I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.”


Not it says he's coming with angels and will Judge all the people. Seems different then the transfiguration.



2 Peter 1:16-19

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
KJV


Interesting here when Peter speaks of the coming he goes right into the transfurgation. Was transfiguration a showing of what was to come when Jesus came? I think so.

[SteppingStone]

Originally Posted by SteppingStone

Just Christ sitting on the right hand of power (Which also represents a place of judgement) is something we all know but tend to over look.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

So we all know He's in that place of judgement but we don't connect the dots. We are being judged right now, everyday. Yes there was a one time "Final" judgement of Israel but it's a continuation of time.


1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Judgement begins at the "House of God," or the Temple, then the believers 2nd, and lastly those that refuse the gospel. All past tense now which isn't to say that we aren't being judged now because we are...

I think I need to re-iterate or clarify this last statement. I'd have to say that it's not so much that judgment "Began" with the Temple for Christ had already prophesied against it therefore rendering it judged already, but that the destruction of it was the Confirmation that indeed the judgment under grace (No longer law) was now in effect.

In the like manner in which the physical resurrection of Christ and those that were in the graves, was confirmation of all He said in regards to eternal life...

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father and will judge all people according to their deeds. 28 And I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.”


Not it says he's coming with angels and will Judge all the people. Seems different then the transfiguration.



2 Peter 1:16-19

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
KJV


Interesting here when Peter speaks of the coming he goes right into the transfurgation. Was transfiguration a showing of what was to come when Jesus came? I think so.

Good thoughts, TS.

John wrote about it too... I'll have to find it. It fills both Peter's and John's rhetoric. Must have been pretty critical of an event in their life, even though Peter behaved very awkward at the Transfiguration, saying the wrong things at the wrong time!


Your thoughts about Mt16 are well said. I don't look at these as one and the same event though. I see him referring to his coming ("Son of Man will arrive with all the splendor of his Father, accompanied by an army of angels." Neither do I believe the judgement he speaks of here is damnation, but rather something positive and glorious maybe (language indicates possible a gift)? Not sure. But then he says, almost in this way: "as a matter of fact... some of you standing here are going to see it take place, see the Son of Man in kingdom glory." Maybe they saw ahead. That's quite possible. I see what was happening in the garden as a final encouragement for the suffering awaiting the Messiah. He would leave that mountain and walk toward death.

The Messiah who fulfills everything of the Law and Prophets, stands between the greatest prophet and greatest law giver... both rejected, but while Elijah was rescued in a chariot, and Moses delivered through a mighty exodus, Jesus would surrender his wrists to nails. Mt. Horam also records the affirmation of the Father again ("this is my Son who I am pleased with"), as almost an encouragement and strength for what will surely feel like total abandon and darkness in just a few days.

[edjen01]

growing up in the UPCI i was pre-trib by default. but when i began to study it out, it had to many stretches for my logic. the more I studied and listened to people smarter than me...the more I'm convinced that it doesn't matter and is simply good banter & debate material for discussion boards and prophecy teachers.

I have a limited space of time on this planet...and have decided to not spend much of it debating something that has no eternal or earthly value...and causes much division.