??? for the attorneys and pastors here

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Sounds smart to me.

Personally, I think there are some things people should only confess to God. I don't want to know. Why do people feel like they have to tell another person in order to receive forgiveness? Doesn't it seem like that? That people have a need to confess?

I know of someone who carries around loads of guilt because they never resolved issues with a parent who is now dead. It can't ever be resolved. Does that mean they're going to hell because they never made restitution? At some point you have to trust God's mercy, and don't kill yourself trying to deserve it.

Rational thinking people don't have sex with children. So is it a stretch that they would confess it to someone? I just read about one that was bragging online and that was how he got caught.

[Sherri]

In TN, we are required by law to report any hint of sexual activity toward a minor - even if it wasn't rape. This is even if we hear it second-hand. We have had to call the authorities on more than one occasion.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Rational thinking people don't have sex with children. So is it a stretch that they would confess it to someone? I just read about one that was bragging online and that was how he got caught.

People confess way more than just pedophilia and that wasn't the only thing I was thinking of. I've known of people to confess domestic abuse, adultery, embezzling, gossiping, lying and even murder. I'm sure some irrational thinking went into those crimes, too.

Why confess these kinds of things to a pastor or another saint? If you want to really make restitution and confess, then confess to the proper authorities and/or turn yourself in. Otherwise, it's just a matter of unloading your conscience, and it isn't necessary to receive forgiveness from God.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Sounds smart to me.

Personally, I think there are some things people should only confess to God. I don't want to know. Why do people feel like they have to tell another person in order to receive forgiveness? Doesn't it seem like that? That people have a need to confess?

I know of someone who carries around loads of guilt because they never resolved issues with a parent who is now dead. It can't ever be resolved. Does that mean they're going to hell because they never made restitution? At some point you have to trust God's mercy, and don't kill yourself trying to deserve it.

Is that biblical though?

Is it forgiveness they receive through confession, or relief? Is it perhaps one of the gifts of God to the Church -- the brotherhood/sisterhood? Elders?

I've known a man for several years. He committed a despicable act against a minor. He was a "rational thinking man" (to Baron), but he had a season of "irrationality" and sin (living life without believing) after a divorce, light drug use that was getting worse, a porn addiction and a unwise friend who asked him to be the full-time babysitter for his 3-year old girl. He would watch his porn during her naps, and occasionally she'd wake -- he'd be aroused with her walking into the room. This went on for awhile until perverse thoughts went through his head (this is his own confession here) and he ended up molesting the girl. His own guilt brought him to confess to the girl's father, who of course tried to kill him and he was sent to prison. The man never was the same again (not sure if something happened physically in prison), but he never was. In fact, his emotional and mental health deteriorated rapidly. Coming out of prison was almost worse than when he was in. He couldn't find anywhere to stay (since the household had to register a sex offender). His family rejected him. He went to homeless shelters, and his own lack of wisdom (and guilt) brought him to trust a new friend at the shelter, where one night with alcohol releasing his inhibitions, he told her his past sins. It was later that night that a man wielding a knife attempted to take his life. He was on the run. No family. No redemption to the story. The next time I heard from him he was hearing voices, he was going through severe depression, 72 hours straight of sleeplessness. He was on suicide watch, and in fact set out to kill himself one night that got botched. Unable to get work, get transportation and find a place to stay, he violated his parole (checking in) and went back to prison. The last word I got about this man was that he is now being transferred to a mental hospital.

This was a man who committed a grievous sin. But the way it played out, I'm not sure if that was all a result of his sin, as much as our culture's lack of redemption for individuals in this situation. I know a similar situation of a 23-year old man and a 16-year old girl. The tension between protecting children from harm and creating a culture of redemption is in view here.

In this man's case, his over-confessions were to his detriment. But carrying guilt like that around without finding accountability, comfort and healing through the confession of a brother would be suicide -- both physically and spiritually, I'd imagine. A lack of confession at this point may have turned him over to an habitual child molester for all I know.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

Is that biblical though?

Is what biblical? Confessing or not confessing? I think the biblical ideal is that we should be ABLE to confess to one another, and find support. However, it may not be practical or advisable to do so for various reasons.

Is it forgiveness they receive through confession, or relief? Is it perhaps one of the gifts of God to the Church -- the brotherhood/sisterhood? Elders?

Many people DO receive relief through confession; they can't receive forgiveness from anyone but God. Sometimes confessing to get relief is a purely selfish act, as NOW mentioned, and while it may relieve the confessor, it only serves to hurt those who have to hear it.

I've known a man for several years. He committed a despicable act against a minor. He was a "rational thinking man" (to Baron), but he had a season of "irrationality" and sin (living life without believing) after a divorce, light drug use that was getting worse, a porn addiction and a unwise friend who asked him to be the full-time babysitter for his 3-year old girl. He would watch his porn during her naps, and occasionally she'd wake -- he'd be aroused with her walking into the room. This went on for awhile until perverse thoughts went through his head (this is his own confession here) and he ended up molesting the girl. His own guilt brought him to confess to the girl's father, who of course tried to kill him and he was sent to prison. The man never was the same again (not sure if something happened physically in prison), but he never was. In fact, his emotional and mental health deteriorated rapidly. Coming out of prison was almost worse than when he was in. He couldn't find anywhere to stay (since the household had to register a sex offender). His family rejected him. He went to homeless shelters, and his own lack of wisdom (and guilt) brought him to trust a new friend at the shelter, where one night with alcohol releasing his inhibitions, he told her his past sins. It was later that night that a man wielding a knife attempted to take his life. He was on the run. No family. No redemption to the story. The next time I heard from him he was hearing voices, he was going through severe depression, 72 hours straight of sleeplessness. He was on suicide watch, and in fact set out to kill himself one night that got botched. Unable to get work, get transportation and find a place to stay, he violated his parole (checking in) and went back to prison. The last word I got about this man was that he is now being transferred to a mental hospital.

This was a man who committed a grievous sin. But the way it played out, I'm not sure if that was all a result of his sin, as much as our culture's lack of redemption for individuals in this situation. I know a similar situation of a 23-year old man and a 16-year old girl. The tension between protecting children from harm and creating a culture of redemption is in view here.

In this man's case, his over-confessions were to his detriment. But carrying guilt like that around without finding accountability, comfort and healing through the confession of a brother would be suicide -- both physically and spiritually, I'd imagine. A lack of confession at this point may have turned him over to an habitual child molester for all I know.

I don't know, but I think that feeling the need to confess to a human instead of or in addition to God may demonstrate a lack of faith in God's grace to begin with. Understandably, in a legalistic religious system, people may look to people's forgiveness more than to God, or confuse the two as being equal.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

Is that biblical though?

Is it forgiveness they receive through confession, or relief? Is it perhaps one of the gifts of God to the Church -- the brotherhood/sisterhood? Elders?

I've known a man for several years. He committed a despicable act against a minor. He was a "rational thinking man" (to Baron), but he had a season of "irrationality" and sin (living life without believing) after a divorce, light drug use that was getting worse, a porn addiction and a unwise friend who asked him to be the full-time babysitter for his 3-year old girl. He would watch his porn during her naps, and occasionally she'd wake -- he'd be aroused with her walking into the room. This went on for awhile until perverse thoughts went through his head (this is his own confession here) and he ended up molesting the girl. His own guilt brought him to confess to the girl's father, who of course tried to kill him and he was sent to prison. The man never was the same again (not sure if something happened physically in prison), but he never was. In fact, his emotional and mental health deteriorated rapidly. Coming out of prison was almost worse than when he was in. He couldn't find anywhere to stay (since the household had to register a sex offender). His family rejected him. He went to homeless shelters, and his own lack of wisdom (and guilt) brought him to trust a new friend at the shelter, where one night with alcohol releasing his inhibitions, he told her his past sins. It was later that night that a man wielding a knife attempted to take his life. He was on the run. No family. No redemption to the story. The next time I heard from him he was hearing voices, he was going through severe depression, 72 hours straight of sleeplessness. He was on suicide watch, and in fact set out to kill himself one night that got botched. Unable to get work, get transportation and find a place to stay, he violated his parole (checking in) and went back to prison. The last word I got about this man was that he is now being transferred to a mental hospital.

This was a man who committed a grievous sin. But the way it played out, I'm not sure if that was all a result of his sin, as much as our culture's lack of redemption for individuals in this situation. I know a similar situation of a 23-year old man and a 16-year old girl. The tension between protecting children from harm and creating a culture of redemption is in view here.

In this man's case, his over-confessions were to his detriment. But carrying guilt like that around without finding accountability, comfort and healing through the confession of a brother would be suicide -- both physically and spiritually, I'd imagine. A lack of confession at this point may have turned him over to an habitual child molester for all I know.

Again I am not a therapist, but sanity isn't the picture you paint of this individual. There seems to be evidence that child molesters never reform. If that is true, and it seems to be, then society isn't to blame for not taking them in.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Yep...just wrote that. I had to learn the hard way. Bible school taught me how to figure out Romans 3:23. It did not teacher me how to live in the real world.

You mean that Pastoral Counseling class didn't teach you everything there is to know about counseling people?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

You mean that Pastoral Counseling class didn't teach you everything there is to know about counseling people?

That pastoral counseling class was a joke. The only thing I remember was proper positioning and clothing in order to exert the most authority, and the advice to schedule counseling appointments following church services because most would cancel after God worked on their hearts.

No kidding.

[Baron1710]

It varies by state how much is required, Alaska was or is dealing with this question. Pastors there were/are (not sure of the current status) NOT required to reveal anything. This was a news worthy story in the legal community because it was an exception. Most states require that if it involves children you are required to report it. After that you have to check your state and local laws. Some states allow for more confidentiality than others.

With attorneys a third party often destroys confidentiality (Obvious exceptions apply).

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by Margies3

or anyone else who might really have knowledge about this............

Let's say a member of a congregation has done something very, very wrong (sexually). This person goes to the pastor in confidence and spills his guts - all the disgusting details. In the meantime, the police are called in (not by the pastor) and the person is arrested for their crimes. AFTER the police have arrested this person and taken them away, the pastor then files a written report with the police regarding what he knows about the situation.

My questions are several:
1) How much is the pastor OBLIGATED by law to put in his written report?
2) Should he even be filing a written report? Or does pastor confidentially exclude him from doing that?
3) Where is that "fine line" drawn in a situation like this?

I know that as a daycare provider if I know of abuse or neglect, I am obligated by law to call the authorities. But what I would know would not have been shared with me in the kind of confidential situation that a pastor/parishioner would share. So is there a difference?

Please don't think I am bashing any pastor here. I am simply asking a question. Thanks.

In the state of Ohio, as in most other states, clergy (now including Catholic Priests) are Mandatory Reporters which means that they are required to report any physical/sexual and in some cases emotional abuse to the authorities within a certain amount of time. (it does not have to be a written report and details of the abuse are not necessary.) However, in Ohio (one should check their own state statutes) pastors are exempt from testifying (at their discretion) any details given to them of the abuse due to confidentiality protection.

I had to deal with this while pastoring in OH, and have adopted the same/similar line as NOW.....if you tell/confess to me ___________________ I am required to report it to the authorities.