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01-16-2011, 09:33 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,749
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Re: Debate Location Needed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irreligious
The bolded illustrates the heart of the problem. For either of you to judge the Christianity of the other is beyond excuse and completely deplorable. As my signature verse says, in essence, God is the one who has given me right standing with Himself, not you. Christ is the one who died for me, not you. You are absolutely and completely disqualified from condemning my redemptive relationship with Christ. To bottom line it? How dare you.
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He wasn't condemning anyone, not even you. Why the righteous indignation?
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His banner over me is LOVE....  My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
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01-16-2011, 09:38 PM
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Christ Follower
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 744
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Re: Debate Location Needed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JN Anderson
I like Erwin's material and he has a point. I don't think that applies here though. The Trinitarian in my debate nor I would think either of us are Christian. Why debate or even spread the Gospel of Christ if we are all saved or if we all have The Truth? If any of us sincerely believe in Scripture and are convinced of it then we would tell about Christ to others.
Christians in my view though are those who have responded to God in faith and repentance, been baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. That's where Erwin's quote breaks down IMHO.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh
He wasn't condemning anyone, not even you. Why the righteous indignation?
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Oh yes he was!! Did you read what he said??? He's saying that he and his opponents don't believe the other are Christians. That's condemnation of the worst kind!
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Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? Will God? No! HE IS THE ONE who has given us right standing with himself. Who then will condemn us? Will Christ Jesus? No, for HE IS THE ONE who died for us and was raised to life for us and is sitting at the place of highest honor next to God, pleading for us. (Romans 8:33-34)
"The greatest enemy to the movement of Jesus Christ is Christianity". –Erwin McManus
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01-16-2011, 09:47 PM
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Saved by Grace
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Decatur, TX
Posts: 5,247
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Re: Debate Location Needed:
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Originally Posted by JN Anderson
Yes, and there's nothing wrong with that either. You are just characterizing the arguments here. If we have truth then we should tell others. If not, I am going to keep my pie whole shut. In the end, if we have a truth worth defending then we should.
I like Erwin's material and he has a point. I don't think that applies here though. The Trinitarian in my debate nor I would think either of us are Christian. Why debate or even spread the Gospel of Christ if we are all saved or if we all have The Truth? If any of us sincerely believe in Scripture and are convinced of it then we would tell about Christ to others.
Christians in my view though are those who have responded to God in faith and repentance, been baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. That's where Erwin's quote breaks down IMHO.
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Yet your education is founded on trinitarian schools, (Liberty), translations (KJV-though you have argued in favor of a oneness translation), commentaries, lexicons, and Bible dictionaries. To say nothing of all the historical trinitarians written hymns which we incorporate into worship.
I don't have a problem with discussion over Biblical doctrine, we're certianly never going to come to a workable agreement within Christendom without discussing things. I am offended at the arrogance by some oneness who disqualify trinitarians based on an understanding of God, to the neglect of any spiritual fruit or evidence of salvation in their lives. I am equally offended by any arrogant trinitarian which makes subscribing to a doctrine not found in the Bible, but in later historical creeds a litmus test of Christianity, and neglect all spiritual fruit and evidence of salvation amongst oneness people.
I've heard one of the debates on your website with Glen Burt, IMO he "lost" the debate, but he said when He baptizes a convert He baptizes them "in the name of Christ" yet this isn't good enough for salvation? Their sins remain, even though they have repented and placed all faith in Christ? To say nothing of justification by faith (which both UPC nor CoC) reject. Or of tongues, to which I am under the impression you do not believe are required for salvation, or do you? I am half tempted to debate both of you. 
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"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
Last edited by Jason B; 01-16-2011 at 09:49 PM.
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01-16-2011, 10:09 PM
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Administrator
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,848
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Re: Debate Location Needed:
In the mid 70's as a young teenager I witnessed the Hicks-Reynolds debate in Jena, Louisiana. It was great entertainment and only lacked a concession stand and girls with placards parading around announcing the next round.
__________________
"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
Last edited by CC1; 01-16-2011 at 11:53 PM.
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01-16-2011, 10:48 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
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Re: Debate Location Needed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JN Anderson
Yes, and there's nothing wrong with that either. You are just characterizing the arguments here. If we have truth then we should tell others. If not, I am going to keep my pie whole shut. In the end, if we have a truth worth defending then we should.
I like Erwin's material and he has a point. I don't think that applies here though. The Trinitarian in my debate nor I would think either of us are Christian. Why debate or even spread the Gospel of Christ if we are all saved or if we all have The Truth? If any of us sincerely believe in Scripture and are convinced of it then we would tell about Christ to others.
Christians in my view though are those who have responded to God in faith and repentance, been baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. That's where Erwin's quote breaks down IMHO.
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You are saying because of his Trinitarian view he is not Christian? If so, how very sad that would be. I would have no interest in supporting such debate.
I am so past the notion that heaven is only populated with Oneness Pentecostals.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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01-16-2011, 11:57 PM
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Administrator
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,848
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Re: Debate Location Needed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie
You are saying because of his Trinitarian view he is not Christian? If so, how very sad that would be. I would have no interest in supporting such debate.
I am so past the notion that heaven is only populated with Oneness Pentecostals.
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There go your UPC credentials! (I don't mean official ones, just symbolic ones).
Some of the very basic tenants of being UPC are to;
1. Claim trinitarians are polytheistic (believers in 3 gods)
2. Declare trinitarians not REAL christians and unsaved
3. Part and parcel of the above is to also claim that the millions of trinitarians who claim to have recevied the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and to have spoken in tongues to all have "counterfeit tongues".
__________________
"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
Last edited by CC1; 01-17-2011 at 04:19 PM.
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01-17-2011, 12:17 AM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
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Re: Debate Location Needed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
There go your UPC credentials! (I don't mean official ones, just symbolic ones).
Some of the very basic tenants of being UPC are to;
1. Claim trinitarians are polytheistic (believers in 3 gods)
2. Declare trinitarians not REAL christians and unsaved
3. Part and parcel of the above is to also claim that the millions of trinitarians who claim to have recevied the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and to have spoken in tongues to all have "counterfeit tongues".
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LOL!
Seriously, I think you would be hard pressed to find many UPC ministers that agree with your three "tenets". Though as beliefs in the UPC go, I understand these might be logical projections of the same.
Personally, I am more inclined to take to the "old paths" (see my signature).
These new fangled ideas come and go...
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Last edited by CC1; 01-17-2011 at 04:19 PM.
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01-17-2011, 06:18 AM
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Love God, Love Your Neighbor
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,363
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Re: Debate Location Needed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
There go your UPC credentials! (I don't mean official ones, just symbolic ones).
Some of the very basic tenants of being UPC are to;
1. Claim trinitarians are polytheistic (believers in 3 gods)
2. Declare trinitarian not REAL christians and unsaved
3. Part and parcel of the above is to also claim that the millions of trinitarians who claim to have recevied the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and to have spoken in tongues to all have "counterfeit tongues".
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Yep!
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01-17-2011, 06:20 AM
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Love God, Love Your Neighbor
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,363
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Re: Debate Location Needed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie
LOL!
Seriously, I think you would be hard pressed to find many UPC ministers that agree with your three "tenets".
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Nope!
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These new fangled ideas come and go...
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It's been 40+ years (all of my life), so not too terribly new-fangled.
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01-17-2011, 07:45 AM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
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Re: Debate Location Needed:
Not saying I have not heard such reference. I would like to think it's more hyperbole than actual belief.
When I hear such claims, I conclude they are either projecting, or I question the speaker's integrity and/or his ability to reason.
Utter nonsense.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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