Is Sanctification My Work Or God's Work?

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Abraham was not about a one time moment of justification. God considered his life justified by being faithful and Paul says so as well as James.

Also the only way Abraham received the covenant promises was by faithfulness.

So let us be faithful

Let us be faithful to trust God's work in us. Let us be faithful to rely on God's work through us. Let us be faithful to obey his work in our life, meaning we must trust and have faith in what He's doing.

All of this is part of becoming heirs to the promise, sons of God, those called by His name, the called out ones, born again, regenerated, etc... It's all part of the saving work done in us.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Romans 4


Gen 15:6, 22
Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Hey nice selective quoting but why not get context of what Paul says overall?

Rom 4:19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb.
Rom 4:20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
Rom 4:21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."



Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Socialite

So let us be faithful

Let us be faithful to trust God's work in us. Let us be faithful to rely on God's work through us. Let us be faithful to obey his work in our life, meaning we must trust and have faith in what He's doing.

All of this is part of becoming heirs to the promise, sons of God, those called by His name, the called out ones, born again, regenerated, etc... It's all part of the saving work done in us.

yeah... Stating what should be done has nothing to do with doctrine we are discussing here. IMO you teach a incorrect view of atonement which leads to a lot of things. You say you don't teach licentiousness... Good, still doesn't deal with the reality of what you teach. That is like people saying "well, I don't teach a license to sin." Nobody ever says that but in the end you teach the ability to sin without cost of eternal life. As many would say license and you said "preach" is to say God said "right to" do so. We all agree said God never says it is ok to sin BUT you do teach you "can choose" to do so without loss of right to eternal life and relationship to God."

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

yeah... Stating what should be done has nothing to do with doctrine we are discussing here. IMO you teach a incorrect view of atonement which leads to a lot of things. You say you don't teach licentiousness... Good, still doesn't deal with the reality of what you teach. That is like people saying "well, I don't teach a license to sin." Nobody ever says that but in the end you teach the ability to sin without cost of eternal life. As many would say license and you said "preach" is to say God said "right to" do so. We all agree said God never says it is ok to sin BUT you do teach you "can choose" to do so without loss of right to eternal life and relationship to God."

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The faith walk is a walk of obedience and being a disciple is a "long obedience in the same direction."

I want to obey God. He is my Master. When I was obeying my flesh it rotted me out.

One who believes will be obedient. It's the work of Christ in us. Slaves to righteousness, as Paul says.

Nothing I have said indicates there is a license to sin. In fact, I've said as much as Paul has said, and to those like you, I'd have to qualify it with Romans 6 --- does this mean we should continue in sin? No! Here's why... etc. Paul had to make that clarification because of the way he shaped the idea of justification by faith.

Jesus was obedient for our disobedience. He didn't just redeem me in the past, he redeemed me in the future. He is both the author and finisher of my faith. I in Him, and He in me.

When we turn this around, we end up with works-based salvation. When we look at it in right order, it's a salvation that relies, trusts in fully on Jesus.

I obey because I believe, I am in Him, He is working through me.

If it's still on our complete obedience and perfect record, we are all screwed.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Socialite

The faith walk is a walk of obedience and being a disciple is a "long obedience in the same direction."

I want to obey God. He is my Master. When I was obeying my flesh it rotted me out.

ok

One who believes will be obedient.

No! Believing does not mean obeying.

It's the work of Christ in us. Slaves to righteousness, as Paul says.

yeah or slaves to the flesh which is death. NOT OSAS!

Nothing I have said indicates there is a license to sin. In fact, I've said as much as Paul has said, and to those like you, I'd have to qualify it with Romans 6 --- does this mean we should continue in sin? No! Here's why... etc. Paul had to make that clarification because of the way he shaped the idea of justification by faith.

I never said you did I made the similarity. you just denied you did which I would agree as i explained why BUT you do agree with the other.

Jesus was obedient for our disobedience.

slight of hand in part here theologically speaking. In a Lutzer kind of way. No!

He didn't just redeem me in the past, he redeemed me in the future. He is both the author and finisher of my faith. I in Him, and He in me.

Which is OSAS. Nothing you can do can lose yoru salvation.
He gives you eternal life if YOU are faithful. Just like Abraham received his promise BECAUSE HE OBEYED!

When we turn this around, we end up with works-based salvation. When we look at it in right order, it's a salvation that relies, trusts in fully on Jesus.

when we turn the Bible around we get the OSAS that you teach which is false doctrine. Oh Wow really. Trust in Jesus? hmmm wonder whatthat could mean. To OSAS person it means several things and to others something else. :rolleyes

I obey because I believe, I am in Him, He is working through me.

People obey because they agree with knowledge to obtain something and then do it. You don't obey just because you believe. Devils believe, and Christians believe that doesn't make you obey.

If it's still on our complete obedience and perfect record, we are all screwed.

seriously listen to yourself. "perfect record" who said anything abouta pefect record? That is you bla blah blahing about a little strawman you think xyz doctrine is.

[Socialite]

You obey because you believe.

You discounted what true believing is all about. Sin is an act of disbelieving something about God. All the way back to the garden... sin because the belief that God wasn't providing, God wasn't enough.

This is fundamental. Surprised you contest that point.

You said so much above... in a hurry. But I didn't throw out a straw man. In fact, I'll ask you an old question:

When I sin (distrust God, disobey him, in heart, in action), am I still His son? Am I still heir of the promise? Am I still born again? Does God still see Jesus' record instead of my own? You (rightly) disagree with perfection, so I'm curious what your views are then with regard to our standing before God.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Socialite

You obey because you believe.

Yes but that is not what you said.


"One who believes will be obedient."

the above is mindset Calvinist have that you won't go out and be carnal or you where never saved. Thus a black and white conversion. Believing doesn't mean doing. One can have mental assent and agree untill the cows come home it doesn't mean they are doing the will of God. James is pretty clear.

You discounted what true believing is all about. Sin is an act of disbelieving something about God. All the way back to the garden... sin because the belief that God wasn't providing, God wasn't enough.

This is fundamental. Surprised you contest that point.

I think my point is pretty simple.

You said so much above... in a hurry. But I didn't throw out a straw man. In fact, I'll ask you an old question:

When I sin (distrust God, disobey him, in heart, in action), am I still His son? Am I still heir of the promise? Am I still born again? Does God still see Jesus' record instead of my own? You (rightly) disagree with perfection, so I'm curious what your views are then with regard to our standing before God.

Are you his friend if you disobey his commandments? Is the prodigal son alive when he goes his own way?

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Yes but that is not what you said.


"One who believes will be obedient."

the above is mindset Calvinist have that you won't go out and be carnal or you where never saved. Thus a black and white conversion. Believing doesn't mean doing. One can have mental assent and agree untill the cows come home it doesn't mean they are doing the will of God. James is pretty clear.






I think my point is pretty simple.



Are you his friend if you disobey his commandments? Is the prodigal son alive when he goes his own way?

LUKE: Yes but that is not what you said.

Socialite:
And those that are his will obey

One who believes will be obedient.

Uh, Luke, that's EXACTLY what I said.

LUKE says: the above is mindset Calvinist have that you won't go out and be carnal or you where never saved. Thus a black and white conversion. Believing doesn't mean doing. One can have mental assent and agree untill the cows come home it doesn't mean they are doing the will of God. James is pretty clear.


The above mindset is the mind of Paul, who was the foremost teacher and authority on the subject of Life in the Spirit. "If we walk in the Spirit, we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh."

Let's not get silly and talk about mental assent, as if that's my position (talk about straw men!!). Believing most certainly means doing. You behave according to who you believe in. Conversions are most certainly black and white. The New Birth is not an abstraction!

This doesn't mean I won't ever go out and be carnal. I have -- and it brings me death. I've turned my heart back to God. He's instructed me how living life His way is best for me, and living life my way brings me trouble.

You still discount what true believing is all about. You enjoy talking about word usage and it being different, the English word for believe does not effectively resonate with what "believing" is all about. But I think most readers "get it" anyway. True believing is at a heart-level, it's not something we can do on our own, but is a gift from God (Eph 2). So... rats! We can't get credit for that either! (I know you are big into us getting credit)

LUKE says: Are you his friend if you disobey his commandments? Is the prodigal son alive when he goes his own way?

Neither the prodigal nor the elder brother were in right relationship with the Father. Funny thing is that Jesus lays down his life for his friends, calling them friends while they were still enemies. The most clearest picture of Grace is found in the Story of the prodigal. I wrote a short narrative just for you in NOW's Christmas Present thread. If you have a sec...

[Socialite]

We both (hopefully) agree that perfectionism is not the goal nor possible?

Do you agree that you sin everyday? (You never answered that one -- "how often do you sin?")

When you sin, are you no longer a son of God, kicked out of the house, rejected and your spiritual adoption undone? Please explain this mystery, Luke.

A life of willful sin, a heart turned away from God, rebellion and disobedience as a way of life leads to death. We know this. But a child of God that has fallen... is still His! The righteous fall seven times and get back up... they stay in the family.

[OneAccord]

I think its a team effort. God does His part, shows me my part, I try, then I stumble. Then I get up and try again....