The Five-Fold Ministry

Originally Posted by Bruce Klein

I have many experiences with prophets.

Dr. Jack Deere was a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary; he received the true baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. He got the right foot of fellowship.

Dr. Hobart Freeman was a professor at Grace Theological Seminary; he also received the true baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. He got the Baptist right foot of fellowship.

Their doctorates took them years to earn! Yet, they realized they had been decieved!

The list goes on.

Dr. John McArthur in his book The Charismatics talks about the 'Haves' and the 'Have Nots'. We as true Christians are the 'Haves'.


In Jesus,
Brother Bruce

Bruce may i ask you, do you regard these three men, all of whom are Trinitarians and none to my knowledge have been rebaptised with the jesus Only baptismal formula as saved? If they are saved, then how can they be saved whilst teaching Trinitarianism and not obeying Acts 2:38 as you understand it. If they are all lost and going to hell, then why do you regard them as indwelt by the Holy Spirit and given the office of prophets by him? Can lost people be directly appointed to Church ministries and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, adopted as Sons into the body of Christ (which they Holy Spirits indwelling signifies - Romans 8:12-15) if they are lost and going to hell?

Hello PoorWiddleMe,

Your comments are interesting and funny, but we would all agree they are ‘sad but true’.

I try to answer all posts by what I think the Holy Spirit is giving me to write.

As a teacher, I don’t see gray areas. To me issues are either black or white, sin or not sin, guilty or not guilty, going to Heaven or going to Hell.

The overall problem with the church today is? SIN.

The church as a whole ignores or justifies away many verses in Jesus’ Word!

Such as:

“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.” 1 John 3:6

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” 1 John 3:8

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” 1 John 5:18

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Matthew 5:48

“Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:” Colossians 1:28


Jesus is coming for a holy church, one without spot or wrinkle.
“That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.” Ephesians 5:27



“But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.” 1 Peter 1:15-16

“But now being made free (1659) from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” Romans 6:22
“But now having been set free (1659) from sin, and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification (38), and the end everlasting life.” Romans 6:22 JG
* This is a Greek participle (1659) which is in the passive mood in the first aorist tense. Meaning the word must be translated as having taken place in the past, ‘now having been set free from sin’.

JG is Jay Green's The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible. It is available for Esword.net.

“To the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.” 1 Thessalonians 3:13

“Let us therefore, as many as be perfect (5046), be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.” Philippians 3:15

“Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness (or sanctification, 38) with sobriety.” 1 Timothy 2:15
“And the very God of peace sanctify (37) you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless (274) unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Thessalonians 5:23

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness (or sanctification, 38), without which no man shall see the Lord:” Hebrews 12:14

“Being then made free (1659) from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.” Romans 6:18
“And having been set free (1659) from sin, you were enslaved to righteousness.” Romans 6:18 JG
* This is a Greek participle (1659) which is in the passive mood in the first aorist tense. Meaning the word must be translated as having taken place in the past, ‘now having been set free from sin’. The New Covenant in the correct Greek text is inspired. The KJV is not inspired.

“But now being made free (1659) from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” Romans 6:22
“But now having been set free (1659) from sin, and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification (38), and the end everlasting life.” Romans 6:22 JG
* This is a Greek participle (1659) which is in the passive mood in the first aorist tense. Meaning the word must be translated as having taken place in the past, ‘now having been set free from sin’. The New Covenant in the proper Greek text is inspired. The KJV is not inspired.


So, how did the Apostolic Oneness church get into this sinful condition?

Once upon a time there was a man at Azusa Street Mission. He taught 'entire sanctification'. His problem was he taught it as a ‘work of grace’ coming from Methodist theology. His understanding of sanctification was right; his way of arriving at sanctification was wrong. Along comes a Baptist from Chicago. At Azusa Street Mission he receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit. He returns to Chicago where he continues as a Baptist pastor. The Baptist teach ‘progressive sanctification’. He doesn’t change his theology to ‘entire sanctification’ also called ‘sinless perfection’, etc. He travels among Pentecostals making his ‘progressive sanctification’ popular. Along comes the Apostolic Oneness group which somehow acquires much Baptist/protestant doctrine.

Thankfully, Jesus has given us a way to have ‘sinless perfection’!

How does one acquire ‘sinless perfection’?

The answer is given in Jesus’ Holy Bible.

In Jesus,
Brother Bruce

[Michael The Disciple]

Iron Bladder

Br

uce may i ask you, do you regard these three men, all of whom are Trinitarians and none to my knowledge have been rebaptised with the jesus Only baptismal formula as saved?

I attended Faith Assembly where Hobart Freeman was the Pastor some back in the early 80's. Although he was not Oneness he did not like the term "Trinity".

Bro. Freeman was most assuredly baptized in Jesus name. All Faith Assembly members were also.

The Peace of the Lord

I wanted to give a testimony here about some teachings that have been a great blessing for me. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me - it's just my experience. Nor will I identify my group lest anyone think I'm spamming. I've
seen enough groups named dragged through the mud by mean and spiteful people when I google - so it's enough to talk about the teachings as I see our group has been kept out of that fray. I'd like to keep it that way. I'm also
not raised to teach or preach, so I'd prefer not to have anything I might miscommunicate or misunderstand be taken as something official from our Church.

As for me...
I'm new here on this board. I go to a Church that believes the gifts of the Spirit, and 5-fold ministries are as it was back in the time of the early Church.

Regarding the 5-fold ministry, this is something that God decides as per Paul's comment about himself being an apostle in the opening verses of Galatians - and not something men (flesh or blood) decide or vote on. So if it applies to the ministry of apostle, then it appiles to the other 4 ministries as well. When men appoint men, then these problems are eventually made manifest and at times even on the news. These problems can be avoided if God appoints them.

God directs this through the gifts of the Spirit, which are to be discerned and applied with wisdom. Jesus decides as he did with the 12, with Paul, and still today. Christ has been and still is directly involved in building the Church
(Matt 16:18), because he is the Head (Col 1:18) of the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12). Christ communicates these decisions through the gifts of the Spirit, to the Church, who gives these gifts to the ministry. The ministry uses this information to decide whom God wants to raise. Gifts are like telegrams from God, and the one's who decipher this information (apply the gift properly and not misinterpret) are the pastors who have this annointing.

Aren't there more than 5 ministries some might ask? Certainly all non-pastor members serve the Lord in diverse ways (hospitality to the brethren, evangelism, music, Sunday School, etc.) – but these are simply ways of
“serving the Lord” - not “ministries.”

No pastor has all 5 ministries. Only Jesus had all 5 ministries, and has divided up these functions so that everyone is interdependant on one another - not in isolation - but rather as a BODY, as He intended. Furthermore no servant has all 9 gifts of the Spirit. These are now divided among the Body, so the sheep too are interdependant on one another. Gifts are to be submitted to the ministry - that is the pastor, to be discerned and applied with wisdom. As a result pastors are sent to different congregations which need to benefit from their ministry. I'll go into this later.

All pastors must have the gift of discernment of Spirits and Wisdom. No one can be a pastor without these two gifts, as the gifts are to be given to the pastor to filter out. Gifts are to be written down and submitted (if you have a dream, if you had a vision, if you had a revelation). Why? Because not all gifts come from the Lord which is why discernment of Spirit's is needed. The pastor has this gift and weeds out what is not from the Lord (e.g. from man's spirit or the enemies). Gifts about one's spouse becoming a pastor are rejected by default even if it's from the Lord, we always wait for an unbaised party to have a gift about this. We're not afraid to stop someone from speaking in tongues if it's not from the Holy Spirit. Gifts from new members
are rejected until it has been established over time as to their faithfulness. The Lord may indeed be using them but the gifts are subject to the Body - not the other way around. We do not greive the Holy Spirit when this happens, rather we please Him because we are acting in a responsible
careful manner. Some gifts may not be for the present, but for the future. Gifts are mostly partial gifts, and other gifts need to be compared to get the whole picture - just as one assembles a puzzle. Yet in the movements we've observed these lessons are disregarded and folks get disappointed.

Back in the early days of our particular group they had just left their respective mainline denomations. In those Spiritually dead religions they were compelled to leave because the gifts were not accepted there. So looking
outside they hoped to join a Pentecostal group. So they looked around. Sitting in on some Pentecostal meetings they began observing mistakes. Some classic mistakes include things like when one week the Lord said the lame would walk. And so a physically crippled person did. They all praised
the Lord. The next week, the same announcement only this time no healing. Half the people left and went back that day. It was a painful lesson. The healing that week was to be a Spiritual one - someone's walk with the Lord
being healed - their fellowship inside. The gift was from the Lord but the gift was not applied with wisdom. Saying so after the fact, after folks get up and walk out isn't going to win anyone over - that discernment and wisdom needs to be demonstrated from the outset. Another kind of example commonly made in many movements today..A gift comes from the Lord about a snake under a childs bed. Do you tell the child this literally? Only if you're unwise. No the parent is told that the Lord has shown a Spiritual difficulty related to something in the childs room (e.g. - the snake = enemy; room = childs life; bed = complacency, etc). Perhaps a book, video or game with some kind
of oppression (e.g Harry Potter book, etc) hindering them in their Spiritual walk. Something like that, etc. One common mistake noticed even in those still learning the ropes about the gifts in our Churches (new members typically) is to take gifts literally. Someone once had a dream about buying a new red car. So they went out and bought a new car they could afford. The red could have represented the Blood of Jesus, the vehicle the Work of the Lord that will take them to eternity; buying the car in the same manner Jesus told us to come and buy milk/wine without money or price - e.g. - ask Jesus who gives freely, etc.

. . .

. . .

Furthermore, gifts are to edify not to embarass people. If someone is to be disciplined this is to happen discretly. Why create more obstacles by calling everyone's attention to his/her shame? The goal is for them to repent and come back to the fold, not drive them out and alienate them.

So the Lord revealed for a new group to begin and not to join an existing movement.

As for the ministries specifically..

1-The apostle is one whom the Lord raises to plant new Churches. We have a pastor who is a diplomat who in hindsight has been used by the Lord to start new groups in his travels. We don't need to identify him as "Apostle so-and-so" as that fruit bears witness, and no words need to be said. The presbytery would have this fellow in mind to send to areas were we have no
groups.

2-The prophet. The Lord uses this fellow to prophecy about major directions for the Church in general. Certainly sheep can have gifts of prophecy, but I would imagine these pretain only to local Church matters at their congregation and not major directions. At a seminar these fellows would travel to teach. Agabus I believe is an example of this regarding the famine.
The prophetesses daughters described elsewhere in acts did not have this ministry and were sheep used a lot with the gift of Prophecy. Any faithful member can be used in any gift, but that doesn't mean they have a ministry. Furthermore we never read of any female pastors from Acts-Rev. Pastors
are men. Men are to be the head of a household who are not to be taught or under the authority of a woman in Church matters. Male youth, sure, but not men - besides the younger folks are certainly a lot less stubborn anyway and a handful as it is :-). Jesus Christ is the same, God never changes - the bible is clear, and so a modern society has no bearing on this truth. Society is
immoral and degenerate, so why model after it?

3-The evangelist is one who the Lord uses to bring many to Christ. In my city our pastor is not an evangelist, and so at our evangelical events, the presbytery would have someone with that ministry sent to preach. Their preaching is used by the Lord to draw many folks to Christ. Peter certainly demonstrated this on Pentecost, with Cornielius's family and also at the
time when the lame man was healed outside the temple.

4-The pastor help integrate the sheep into the flock, the Body, where they learn to function properly. Our pastor here in my city seems to have this ministry, given I heard he's been sent to at least one other place where there were some internal difficulties - since then set in order. There are a lot of unnamed and unknown pastors in the bible never mentioned. Apollos is probably one of them given he's maintaining a flock Paul established. I'm unclear myself if all ministries being pastors have this one by default, or
if this is a "pastor-pastor" ministry.

5-The teacher is not the sunday school teacher. At seminars I believe these would be the fellows to teach. I'm not entirely clear on this example. Paul seems to have had this ministry as well based on letters bearing his name.

We also have other roles that are not ministries but pre-steps to becoming a pastor: married man who is the head of his household who preaches to his family ever Friday evening. That's what I'm doing. I'm cutting my teeth. Eventually at some point when I'm ready, and when the Lord decides I could
be raised as a "worker". After that cames "deacon" with a pre-ordained step in between, as well as before coming a full fledged pastor. These steps ensure it's taken slowly and the necessary growth is allowed. During this time the pastor is watching for things like how my marriage is, do I have
discernment of Spirits, do I have the gift of wisdom, etc. We actually have a deacon here in town who doesn't speak English at the moment (is learning) and is also being new to this area on a probationary period before he resumes his role as deacon. So we do things carefully.

All memebers including pastors are expected to hold down their own day job. We don't take collections, nor do we ask people to tithe as this is between the believer and the Lord. At a recent evangelism 100000 people attended and many visitors were baffled that we didn't ask for anything.

That's a very good testimony for them to spread to others. Pastors are not to shout or slam their fists down or repeat themselves over and over for 3 hours strait, which forces them to have actual substance in their sermons. The sermons (or messages as we call them) must be based on Spiritual gifts the Lord has given for that day - and the pastor only has about 15 minutes to organize the message after the preservice meeting while the Church is singing. The sermons preached in the New Testament are not that long in length, and who would argue they lacked substance? The Spirit can
accomplish a lot in 20 to 40 minutes. The song selection itself is based off the gifts and theme of the message, which can guide the pastor during this time of praise leading up to him going to the pulpit to preach. As a result the pastor doesn't need to have a degree in theology - just like Peter, who did not have the credentials that Paul himself had and considered to be "rubbish". One pastor I correspond with who has a ton of this education doesn't lean on this knowledge either, other than being able to lookup a verse quicker than some other pastors. Even that doesn't matter as the Holy Spirit
through the gift identifies a passage.

This has served us well since our inception in 1967, and this group has never split, nor scandals nor doctrinal disputes. Folks are free to disagree with the above (it's a free country after all) - this is just a testimony. I believe this is of God, and agree with these words as well..

Act 5:38 And now I say to you, Withdraw from these men and let them alone. For if this counsel or this work is of men, it will come to nothing.
Act 5:39 But if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God.

The Peace of the Lord
FT

[Michael The Disciple]

Hi FT,

Well I must say you have my interest. Dont leave us in the dark. If this group is all you say some of us may want to be introduced to it.

Hi Michael. I'm just being careful not to misrepresent where I go, so I prefer not to name them on a public forum, as it's a rare thing to find a group that isn't being torn apart online (as we're not into arguing apologetics). If people don't agree with teachings we hold to,then they simply ignore us. I myself used to be heavy into arguing about stuff online - but seeing more and more the vanity of trying to do so. That said, I still see the value in presenting these ideas more as a testimony and personal experience.

It should therefore come as no suprise that the issue of the long debates and discussions surrounding the subject of the Trinity are of no interest to us. I'll do my best not to leave you in the dark, so feel free to ask others questions by all means as it relates to what be believe It's also a good way to tell which folks are more interesting in attacking the person rather than the idea.

Anyone interested in seeing first hand what goes on here can simply pray for the Lord about that. That was my experience, and the most meaningful for me. I'm most interested in reaching ex-pentecostals/charismatics who have been burned and are considering to write off the gifts/ministries for today on account of man's interference and misrepresentation. Of course I'm also interested in those who have never been to Church before, etc.

That said, I wanted to stress again that I'm not raised as a pastor, so take what I say with that in mind, and not as something official.

When I first became Christian I was praying for a Church that believed about the Rapture, into escatology, etc. My prayer to the Lord when I was ready to leave a life without Him behind, and that I would follow Him: without any demands on my part. It would not be a quid-pro-quo kind of thing ("fix my sentimental life first, fix my unemployeement situation first, and then I'll follow you Lord"..no I did not make these conditions - yet they came later on having sought first His Kingdom). The Lord led me to the group I'm in - a group with this same kind of humble mindset that doesn't dare presume what God ought to do. A group that strives to not get in the way of what He wants to accomplish, but cooperate fully. Researching about the rapture and escatology online really helped me organize my thougths in terms of what to
pray for. So I'm just leaving my testimony to edify others whom I hope will have the same experience.

In relation to what we believe about the Rapture I'll post this to a thread you've started on the subject...

[Michael The Disciple]

After reading some of your posts I see you are Trinitarian. When I was Trinitarian I was not ashamed of who I fellowshipped with. I was happy to tell someone who asked who they were.

Matter of fact I still am not ashamed of the time I spent fellowshipping among the Ceylon Pentecostal Mission. When it came to zeal, love, fellowship and commitment I have never seen an Apostolic Church that compares with them.

But in foundation doctrine they are far off. Why even tell us these things about how good your group is and then be to timid to say who they are? The worse that could happen is some people on here would say they are lost. So what? You are here aren't you? Some on here probably think Im lost too!

Hi Michael. I'm just being careful not to misrepresent where I go, so I prefer not to name them on a public forum. Furthermore as it's a rare thing to find a group that hasn't being torn apart online - or the subject of debate. People tend to have their mind made up and rarely hear the other sides view. No group out there is immune from being slammed by some argmentative person with an opinion. Some folks don't believe that the gifts are for today, and will already have their mind made up and spout things they don't understand. No group is immune to not attracting that kind of ignorant criticism. We're not into arguing apologetics, and attracting that kind of crowd. If people don't agree,then they simply ignore us and go elsewhere. I myself used to be heavy into arguing about stuff online - but seeing more and more the vanity of trying to do so. I'm now just focusing on presenting the ideas more as a testimony and personal experience. There's also the issue of the long debates and discussions surrounding the subject of the Trinity which we're not into debating.

I'd sooner anyone interested in knowing the name can simply pray for the Lord to show them. That was my experience, and the most meaningful for me. I'm most interested in reaching ex-pentecostals who have been burned and are considering to write off the gifts/ministries for today on account of man's interference and misrepresentation. Of course I'm also interested in those who have never been to Church before who might be lurking and browsing these kind of forums, etc.

When I first became Christian I was praying for a Church that believed about the Rapture, into escatology, etc. My prayer to the Lord when I accepted Him was: 1) ready to leave a life without Him behind, and 2) that I would follow Him: without any demands on my part. It would not be a quid-pro-quo kind of thing ("fix my sentimental life first, fix my unemployement situation first, and then I'll follow you Lord")..no I did not make these conditions. Those blessings came later at the right time. Meanwhile the Lord led me to the group I'm in - a group with this same kind of attitude of not presuming what God wants. A group that strives to not get in the way of what He wants to accomplish, but rather wants to cooperate fully. Researching about the rapture and escatology online really helped me organize my thoughts in terms of what to pray for when searching for a Church. So NOW I'm just leaving my testimony to edify others whom I hope will have the same experience. Reading others testimonies helped me avoid a lot of terrible places and helped me know what to avoid. So I hope that someone like me back then today, will read this post. Maybe they'll read this post. Maybe they'll like what they read, and pray to the Lord "show me if this is true" with a completely open and sincere heart.

That's good enough for me.

I also think people might be willing to listen more to an idea if they don't see a name to trigger their preconceptions. They'll either stay focused on the idea - or they'll show their true colors of having had no interest in the first place. I'm not saying this is you, but I've observed these kind of people just about anywhere one goes on the internet. I'd sooner not give them that opportunity. People with that mindset typically are not humble enough to cooperate in the Work of the Lord where the Holy Spirit is to lead 100% without human interference. Better to let them quiet down first and put aside their strong opinions first. People who think they know it all only hinder the Lord's work - take the religious folks who arranged for Jesus to be crucified for example. My post here is simply a testimony and an experience which only I know to be true, though I do not pretend to be able to prove. That's between them and the Lord to do. That said I'm happy to go into more details (and or clarify) about the things written above regarding what our group believes about the 5-fold ministry or 9-gifts didn't make sense. Let's stick to the idea, and if we can't agree, then let's agree to disagree. Which is also fine for me.

P.S. - I posted our view on the 7 trumpets. I think there is a bit of a delay as it's a rather lengthy post. I'll try to post it again. It's in that thread you started a while back Michael.