Incarnation OR Indwelling?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14 NAS

Just wanted to put that version out there because it says, the Word became flesh.

Bro Blume, I'm a little confused about what you are saying. Are you saying something similar to what we read about ourselves in 2 Cor 5:1-11? In which Paul states that we live within the tents of our physical bodies. That is kind of like an indwelling.

Let me say it this way: John did not stop with simply saying the word was made flesh. Hew knew he had to say more than just that the Word was made flesh. He had to explain what he meant. He ADDED the thought with something that QUALIFIED what he meant by saying "HE DWELT among us. DWELT means TABERNACLED. The Word no more became flesh in the way some think than God became the TEMPLE in the Old Testament. Humanity was the temple. God did not BECOME humanity. He indwelt it.

But aren't you in effect saying that Jesus Christ is not God when you say that God did not die?

No. Jesus is GOD as per His person. AS A MAN, He died alone. Not as God. He was both, but the human was not God and God was not human. I believe the bible teaches TWO NATURES. HUMAN NATURE alone died. Not divine nature.

God did not become a man any more than a man can become God. I personally think it is idolatry to say God BECAME A MAN - like in transmutation. Nothing personal against anyone, btw.

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Let me say it this way: John did not stop with simply saying the word was made flesh. He QUALIFIED what he meant by saying HE DWELT among us. DWELT means TABERNACLED. The Word no more became flesh in the way some think than God became the TEMPLE in the Old Testament. Humanity was the temple. God did not BECOME humanity. He indwelt it.

Hello mfblume,

You are correct in saying "dwelt" means "tabernacled". But rather than tabernacled qualifying made, I believe made qualifies tabernacled. As I pointed out in the previous post, flesh (sarx) means more than simply the outer fleshly shell, but the whole human nature. So, the way the Word "tabernacled" among us was by assuming a complete human nature and existing in/through that human nature.

No. Jesus is GOD as per His person. AS A MAN, He died alone. Not as God. He was both, but the human was not God and God was not human. I believe the bible teaches TWO NATURES. HUMAN NATURE alone died. Not divine nature.

God did not become a man any more than a man can become God. I personally think it is idolatry to say God BECAME A MAN - like in transmutation. Nothing personal against anyone, btw.

We know that the attributes and properties of deity are immutable, which means they cannot change (or die). Human nature CAN change, including being subject to death. However, since it was the divine person of God who was existing as a genuine human being (as the Son), then it was the person of God who died- not as to His divine nature, but as to His human nature. As Magee once said, "God did not die, but He who died was God".

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by DaveC519

As Magee once said, "God did not die, but He who died was God".

Amen, this makes sense only when we understand that the SINGLE PERSON OF GOD was both God and Son of God. The same person of the man and God was Who it was Who died. So GOD did not die. But the PERSON of the ONE WHO DIED was THE PERSON of God. Magee had the revelation!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No. Jesus is GOD as per His person. AS A MAN, He died alone. Not as God. He was both, but the human was not God and God was not human. I believe the bible teaches TWO NATURES. HUMAN NATURE alone died. Not divine nature.

You have conflicting statements in this paragraph.

1) Jesus is God as per His person

2) Human nature alone died.

So what you are saying, imo, is that human nature consists of a human spirit/soul and a human body. And when Jesus died, the human died since Jesus is God and God did not die and God was not human. Therefore Jesus, the Son of God, could not possibly be God.

Or you may be saying that when Jesus died, the person of Jesus who is God, left the human nature alone to die. Therefore you have two centers of consciousness within Christ, one who is God and the other who is human. And it was the human who said, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

but the writer of Hebrews lets us know that Christ is God: Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:

God did not become a man any more than a man can become God. I personally think it is idolatry to say God BECAME A MAN - like in transmutation. Nothing personal against anyone, btw.

The NAV translates John 1:14 as the "Word became flesh". We know from John 1:1 that the Word is God. So God became flesh. We could also say God became man since that is what is meant by flesh. I understand that God is immutable and cannot change who and what He is. Yet, not me, but the word of God states that God became a man.

If you want to say that God tabernacled among us to try to turn the incarnation more into an indwelling, then wouldn't that be equivalent to saying that we as humans likewise tabernacle in this world? 2 Cor 5:1-11? How is our "tabernacling" any different from Christ's "tabernacling"? We wouldn't be considered completely human without our "tabernacles", our physical bodies.

Bro Blume said:

Let me say it this way: John did not stop with simply saying the word was made flesh. Hew knew he had to say more than just that the Word was made flesh. He had to explain what he meant. He ADDED the thought with something that QUALIFIED what he meant by saying "HE DWELT among us. DWELT means TABERNACLED. The Word no more became flesh in the way some think than God became the TEMPLE in the Old Testament. Humanity was the temple. God did not BECOME humanity. He indwelt it.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

You have conflicting statements in this paragraph.

1) Jesus is God as per His person

2) Human nature alone died.

I see no conflict.

"Jesus is God as per His person", means that the PERSON who is both God and Man was Who it was Who died. There is only one PERSON in the Godhead. The Father is not the Son, but the Person of the Father is the Person of the Son.

Let me use a crude example to show my point. If I was God, I could do many things, and do them all at once, and remain one person. If I turned myself into a table and at the same time I turned myself into a chair, but in no way limited myself to ONLY BEING a table and a chair, that would be two manifestations. We know a table is not a chair. But the ONE WHO BECAME a table and a chair is the same person. Similarly, GOD's single person was both Father and Son at the same time. But a Father is not a Son. They are two different manifestations.

So, when I said "Jesus is God as per His person", I meant the PERSON of Jesus is no other person aside from the person of God. That ONE PERSON Who is God was the Son of God as well as Father. But the Father did not die. The Father is DEITY ALONE. The Son is not. He is both deity and humanity. But when the Son died, the deity did not die. Only the humanity.

Although we cannot say GOD DIED, we know that THE PERSON of the Son that died was the same person Who is ALSO GOD. He was both man and God at one time. Jesus is the PERSON'S NAME, not just the Son's name. And when I say "Jesus is God as per His person", and then say "Human nature alone died." there is no conflict. One has to realize that the PERSON is common, but not the manifestation of that person. that SINGLE person of God was both human and divine. And only the HUMAN ASPECT of Him died.

So what you are saying, imo, is that human nature consists of a human spirit/soul and a human body. And when Jesus died, the human died since Jesus is God and God did not die and God was not human. Therefore Jesus, the Son of God, could not possibly be God.

No, that is not what I said. Read over my explanation above carefully, and I trust you will see that now.

No offence intended to anyone, but this is all really Oneness 101. I am just surprised many people disagree who call themselves oneness. Really, I mean absolutely no offence. It just raises my eyebrows a bit.

Or you may be saying that when Jesus died, the person of Jesus who is God, left the human nature alone to die.

No. Let me say it this way. The Person was manifest as both a human being and the Only Deity who ever existed, at the same time since the incarnation. That PERSON'S HUMANITY died, not His deity.

Therefore you have two centers of consciousness within Christ, one who is God and the other who is human. And it was the human who said, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

There were two centres of consciousness, or else Jesus could not speak of His will as well as "My God's" will. But that is only because there were two natures. Human and divine.

but the writer of Hebrews lets us know that Christ is God: Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:

Exactly. The SON IS BOTH God and man. THE FATHER IS ONLY GOD. The MAN aspect of he SON DIED, but all the while the SON AND THE FATHER are the same PERSON.

The NAV translates John 1:14 as the "Word became flesh". We know from John 1:1 that the Word is God. So God became flesh.

Only in the sense of being made flesh because HE INDWELT flesh, as the word DWELLED means.

We could also say God became man since that is what is meant by flesh. I understand that God is immutable and cannot change who and what He is. Yet, not me, but the word of God states that God became a man.

No it does not. It qualifies that, again, by saying HE DWELLED/TENTED with us.

If you want to say that God tabernacled among us to try to turn the incarnation more into an indwelling, then wouldn't that be equivalent to saying that we as humans likewise tabernacle in this world?

No. I am not trying to say anything. I am repeating whatJohn 1:14 said and what DWELLED means. I did not choose that meaning of DWELLED. That is the meaning.

2 Cor 5:1-11? How is our "tabernacling" any different from Christ's "tabernacling"?

We ARE human beings alone. Jesus is not. He existed as a PERSON (as the ONLY person of God) long before His SONSHIP existed. That is how we are different.

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by Esther

Didn't want to lose this discussion from another thread.

Posted by Mapleleaf

The Son was not a body in which God dwelt; the Son was God manifested in flesh, Emmanuel, God with us.


It is the difference between incarnation and indwelling.

In Christ, God did not indwell a man, God became a man.

The birth of Christ was a unique joining of absolute Deity with perfect humanity, and of this we say, great is the mystery of godliness."

Hello Esther,

I believe there are some important verses which can be brought to bear on our understanding of this: did God indwell a man, or become a man? I believe it is both.

1)- "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." (Heb 2:16-17)

The Son was literally made like unto his brethren (the seed of Abraham)- He was a genuine human being. He was truly human in every way we are- save without sin (4:15).


2)- "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)

As Mizpeh already pointed out, the Word (Logos) was God (vs. 1)

"Made" is translated from the Greek ginomai, literally meaning "to become". "Flesh" is translated from sarx, and refers to more than just the fleshly shell, but rather, human nature:

"NT:4561
(b) "the human body," 2 Cor 10:3 a; Gal 2:20; Phil 1:22; (c) by synecdoche, of "mankind," in the totality of all that is essential to manhood, i. e., spirit, soul, and body, Matt 24:22; John 1:13; Rom 3:20; (d) by synecdoche, of "the holy humanity" of the Lord Jesus, in the totality of all that is essential to manhood, i. e., spirit, soul, and body John 1:14; 1 Tim 3:16; 1 John 4:2; 2 John 7, in Heb 5:7, "the days of His flesh," i. e., His past life on earth in distinction from His present life in resurrection; (e) by synecdoche, for "the complete person," John 6:51-57; 2 Cor 7:5; James 5:3;
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)


So, we see from the two passages above that Jesus was not just God indwelling a separate/distinct human person, but was the divine person of God who began a distinct human existence. He did not join to Himself an angelic nature (Heb 2:16), but a human nature (with all that entails), and began to exist in and through that human nature. He (God) continued to exist as omnipresent Spirit as He always had, while also existing as a genuine human being.


3)- "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him." (Acts 10:38)

We see from this passage that Jesus was not only God incarnate, but that His human nature was also "anointed... with the Holy Ghost and with power". This anointing was poured out upon Him "without measure" (Jn 3:34). It is in this way we can say the Son was "indwelt" by God, although He was at the same time "God incarnate".