Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Church

[*AQuietPlace*]

Does anyone believe we should continue to sin? Doesn't every Christian strive to lead a life that is pleasing to God?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Does anyone believe we should continue to sin? Doesn't every Christian strive to lead a life that is pleasing to God?

Why no teaching on "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect"? Why do people instead try to change the meaning of the word perfect?

The problem is people have been conditioned to believe sin is normal for disciples of Yeshua. Therefore it has become normal.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

All you can be for God and yet contining to sin? All you can be for God sounds pretty good but then sadly you say it does not mean you have to be sinless.

How does God feel about sin? Why did Yeshua die?

Why do people resist the simple truth that YHWH expects us to cease from sin? And while proclaiming such a concept they wonder why the Church is a mess.

If the eternal spirit is cool with the doctrine "we all sin all the time" why did the apostle write this?

11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom. 6:11

How can you count yourself dead to sin if your faith says we cannot cease from it?

Are you sinless Michael?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Are you sinless Michael?

Its funny. When I teach on this its so predictable. Instead of examing the word and our relationship to it I always get asked if I am sinless. However I will bite.

Im not aware of any sin in my life.

If one has sin in their life I believe they should be very afraid. Yeshua said:

19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Rev. 3:19

As long as the sin is unrepented of one would be in danger of the chastening of the Lord. Yes Christians have forgotten about that. Yet its just as valid today as it was in the first century.

Now some will say I preach a message of fear. Now youre catching on!

First off I will say our fellowship with Christ is the deepest and most passionate one we will ever know. His lovingkindness is better than life. If he is real to you at all you know this is true.

To abide in him is the purpose and answer of life to a disciple. Yeshua says if we love him we will keep his commands. The passion and feelings should be real to you. Yet if its not backed up by a life of consistent obedience it is mere emotionalism that does not last.

If a believer does commit sin they can confess and ask forgiveness and move on. Yet if sin lingers and you are truly a child of Elohim he will search you out to punish you to the end you may turn from it and back to him.

So one cannot teach the whole counsel of Elohim without teaching both the love and fear of him.

Nothing has hurt the Church more in past few decades than the doctrine of "unconditional love".

Thats what the devil wants us to believe. There is no conditions on the love of Yeshua. He however said the opposite:


21: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21

10: If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:10

The reason many have a "faith crisis" is because they have never consistently walked in the light as he is in the light. Therefore they have not known his personal love.

Or maybe once they did and now are not walking close like before and cant find him in that special intimacy.

Yeshua says he will MANIFEST HIMSELF to those who keep his word. He said if we keep his commands we will abide in his love. So indeed there are conditions to his love.

Abide in him. Be perfect with his teachings. Be blessed.

[*AQuietPlace*]

I don't know of a single serious Christian who thinks it's okay to sin.

Unconditional love means that God will forgive you. Not that it's okay to sin.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Its funny. When I teach on this its so predictable. Instead of examing the word and our relationship to it I always get asked if I am sinless. However I will bite.

Im not aware of any sin in my life.

If one has sin in their life I believe they should be very afraid. Yeshua said:

19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Rev. 3:19

As long as the sin is unrepented of one would be in danger of the chastening of the Lord. Yes Christians have forgotten about that. Yet its just as valid today as it was in the first century.

Now some will say I preach a message of fear. Now youre catching on!

First off I will say our fellowship with Christ is the deepest and most passionate one we will ever know. His lovingkindness is better than life. If he is real to you at all you know this is true.

To abide in him is the purpose and answer of life to a disciple. Yeshua says if we love him we will keep his commands. The passion and feelings should be real to you. Yet if its not backed up by a life of consistent obedience it is mere emotionalism that does not last.

If a believer does commit sin they can confess and ask forgiveness and move on. Yet if sin lingers and you are truly a child of Elohim he will search you out to punish you to the end you may turn from it and back to him.

So one cannot teach the whole counsel of Elohim without teaching both the love and fear of him.

Nothing has hurt the Church more in past few decades than the doctrine of "unconditional love".

Thats what the devil wants us to believe. There is no conditions on the love of Yeshua. He however said the opposite:


21: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21

10: If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:10

The reason many have a "faith crisis" is because they have never consistently walked in the light as he is in the light. Therefore they have not known his personal love.

Or maybe once they did and now are not walking close like before and cant find him in that special intimacy.

Yeshua says he will MANIFEST HIMSELF to those who keep his word. He said if we keep his commands we will abide in his love. So indeed there are conditions to his love.

Abide in him. Be perfect with his teachings. Be blessed.

Michael, I wasn't meaning to be antagonistic. But you've said it well... you're unaware of any sin in your life. Hey, good news. I'm not aware of any sin in your life either! LOL

I think sometimes this debate goes off the tracks because people define "sin" differently. For example, for some folks nearly anything is sin. If you look at a beautiful woman or gaze at a nice care you'd like to have you've sinned (they claim it's covetousness). Even though you never acted on anything or went crazy. Others (the school I'm most closely tied to) would say that sin is strictly defined by the Ten Commandments. If that's the case, I can honestly say that I have no sin in my life either at this point.

So it all boils down to, how do you define "sin" and what "sins" are to be avoided? What are your thoughts brother?

[Michael The Disciple]

Aquila

Michael, I wasn't meaning to be antagonistic. But you've said it well... you're unaware of any sin in your life. Hey, good news. I'm not aware of any sin in your life either! LOL

You know what that means? We are normal Christians!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

You know what that means? We are normal Christians!

lol

What's "normal" about being a Christian?

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Michael, I wasn't meaning to be antagonistic. But you've said it well... you're unaware of any sin in your life. Hey, good news. I'm not aware of any sin in your life either! LOL

I think sometimes this debate goes off the tracks because people define "sin" differently. For example, for some folks nearly anything is sin. If you look at a beautiful woman or gaze at a nice care you'd like to have you've sinned (they claim it's covetousness). Even though you never acted on anything or went crazy. Others (the school I'm most closely tied to) would say that sin is strictly defined by the Ten Commandments. If that's the case, I can honestly say that I have no sin in my life either at this point.

So it all boils down to, how do you define "sin" and what "sins" are to be avoided? What are your thoughts brother?

Missing the mark. Knowing to do good, but not doing it. Failing in obedience to Christ. Sin is both solitude action and a collective lifestyle. Sins are arrogance, slothfulness, deceit, covetousness, envy, jealousy, gossip, and on and on. The more I write the list, the more I agree with Paul that "all have sinned, and all fall short of God's glory." This doesn't mean I preach a Gospel FOR sin, on the contrary, the Gospel saves us as well as empowers us to avoid sin.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Aquila

This is a great question. Paul laid out how a church meeting should be...

I Corinthians 14:26-40
26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.[i]

39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

Here we see everyone bringing something to offer: a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All were to be done in order for the strengthening of the church. If there was an utterance in tongues it was to be limited to three individuals at most to maintain order... but a member present had to provide an interpretation. If no interpretation came forth after an utterance... they were to cease speaking and disrupting and simply pray to God. Two or three anointed preachers (prophets) were to come prepared to speak and teach and the listeners gathered were to seriously weight what was said that they might be built up in Christ Jesus. However, if something were revealed to a listener present, the speaker was to stop speaking and let the brother share his understanding. This way, though two or three prophets governed the meeting, all were allowed to prophesy (teach and share anointed thoughts and messages) in turn. They were sharing their understandings and teaching one another like a round table discussion. However the two or three elders functioning in the meeting were to have spiritual authority over anyone who wished to speak... the spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets. Women were not permitted to interrupt the elders when teaching with questions (remember women were largely unlearned in those days). If they had a question they were to ask their husbands at home. For a woman to interrupt or challenge teaching was disgraceful. Paul then asks them where they got the authority to do things their way and get out of order. They are then admonished if anyone believes they are a prophet or spiritual that they are to know that these are THE LORD'S COMMANDS. And if any saint ignored this general order of worship and gathering he was to be ignored.

I'd say that when a group becomes too large to facilitate this functionality of body ministry it's too big. If all cannot share and discuss openly, it's too big. If only one man has the constantly... it's unbiblical. The church isn't just a meeting... it had a purpose. It's purpose was so that saints could all edify and instruct one another under the guidance of two or three elders. It was an open forum, a round table discussion, anointed by the Spirit and covered in prayer. They also broke bread together for the Lord's Supper... it wasn't this tinny tiny wafer and thimble of grape juice. The Lord's Supper was a feast of fellowship, remembering the Lord and looking forward to his coming when we will all sup with him at the marriage supper of the lamb.

When a church gets so big it's problematic to allow everyone to participate and relegates the majority to being spectators watching a trained preacher and trained singers... it's too big. It will fail in it's purpose. You'll have immature saints and big bills that bog the church down. You'll have unfulfilled ministries and men who never get used. You'll have... a big building where people meet and spend only an hour listening to one man and then everyone goes their marry way until next week or mid week. No real fellowship, confessions, weeping together, laughing together, teaching together.

So yes... it's a commandment from the Lord. When a church body becomes a theater and ceases to be a holistic meeting where all present can share and edify one another per Paul's words... it's too big and unbiblical.

Aquila, no doubt the larger the church gathering, the more weighty the challenge, but you seem to believe we can't accomplish 1 Corinthians 14:26-40 through a larger church dynamic. Small group ministries, through the encouragement of large churches, have been quite successful at helping disciple thousands. While I share your burden for these special times of apostolic gathering, I don't think building a church center for corporate worship is necessarily the wrong thing -- nor, do I believe, one person speaking to the church at a designated time is less than what God wants. I don't see it as either-or. We can have both! Families should be more encouraged to bring church to their homes IMO.