IMPACT 09 Mississippi

[POWERUP]

Great Post Kim!!!!!!

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by CC1

I challenge you to give New Testament examples of scripture dealing with shouting, dancing, clapping, leaping, and spinning. There is only scripture for one thing you mention and that is rejoicing (which one can do without any of the other non biblical things you listed).

Are you serious? Is not ALL scripture given for inspiration and exhortation? (2 Tim 3:16)
Curious what makes you think our praise to God has changed forms from the OT. Why would it?

Did you know a musical instrument is not even mentioned in the pages of the NT. Does this mean Psalm 150 is now obsolete?

The New Testament tells us that the Psalms are most definitely to be a part of the worship practice of believers (Eph. 5:19, Colossians 3:16). According to the New Testament definition for the word psalms, and according New Testament Scripture regarding the Psalms, God is pleased with worship that comes from the heart, with or without instruments. Theres also seems to be no indication why worship forms would suddenly change. If anything, those living in Grace would be MORE exuberant and MORE celebratory. We've got a reason!

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Kim Komando

Worship is a lifestyle and is about the expression of the Spirit of Christ in us. In my opinion, it should reflect our normative expressions of Christ in our daily mundane lives.

Yes, there are emotions attached to those expressions that are normal. The question that I have is - as the temple of the Living God, the anti-type of the OT Tabernacle and its liturgy and worship, are we consistent in our expression of Christ in us when we go to a church meeting? Just as all times in our daily lives? Shouldn't our worship express Christ with the balance, the normalcy, and wide range of emotions we experience as believers daily?

A self inventory of those Spirit-filled expressions would tell me if I am mostly crying, shouting, running, dancing, meditating, singing, etc?

If we are high -energy and amped up at church then shouldn't we be consistent and in temperance be that high-energy at school, the workplace, Chucky Cheese's?

I think if you spin and twirl at a church meeting, you should have no problems doing so if the Spirit directs you in the mall.

I am the Church, that's bible. Therefore, I don't go to a church meeting to display my spirituality, by expressing my worship towards Christ at an abnormal high frequency that is not consistent to my worship of Him the other days of the week.

That would border, in my opinion, to hypocrisy.

Are there times we rejoice and have outbursts. Of course. But creating a culture that only values these high intensity moments as an expression of communion, spirituality and worship of Christ may not be consistent with the working of God's Spirit in His Church throughout the day to day, moment by moment, life of the believer.

I think it can even lead to frustrated believers who are led to believe, rightly or wrongly, that unless they are slain in the Spirit or dancing, God's Spirit is not actively working in them or they do not have the joy of their salvation.

I have experienced this in my own life.

If part of the fruit of the Spirit is to be temperate and we only are exuberant, "or get our praise on", by running the aisles, diving into baptisteries, etc. at the sound of our favorite "jungle" beat then this can be viewed to an outsider who knows you and knows nothing of our experience as either

(a) an anomaly of celebration and rejoicing,
(b) an emotional and carnal expression of conditioning,
(c) a pressure-driven response by the values and dynamics of the group or

(d) not genuine and/or consistent with our normal conduct that should reflect our worship
(e) simply a form of liturgical worship typical to a denominational experience

We should not quench or try to force the Spirit of God. And often, what I have seen the moder Old-time Pentecostal setting (oxymoron) is that we often mistake our fervor and zeal for true and powerful moves of the Holy Ghost in our past experiences to necessarily be carbon-copied and replicated in all of our services - and especially our big rallies and meetings.

This often leads to worship leaders becoming cheer leaders and praise bands learning licks to get things "fired up". How many times are those who are sitting, reflecting, watching the move of God's Spirit, being still or being prayerful told that if they are not feeling what the man with mic is feeling something's wrong with them? Really?

God's Spirit is limited to what you are personally feeling?

Is this temperance? I don't know. I just worry that this can often become about our Pentecostal identity and experience and it is no longer about Him.

I don't get the people on this forum that are against Pentecostal worship.

The Spirit doesn't have to "move on me" for me to praise. These things can be done orderly, and random shouting in the mall is probably not the best witness to God. However, when believers are together and participating in a corporation time of celebration and worship, don't you think for a second that we are going to party down for Jesus. Maybe you all are referencing churches I'm not familiar with, but our church does it right. We shout, we meditate, we weep, we talk to God, we declare God's victory, we acknowledge Him, we celebrate Him, we run the full gamut.

These posts all start off with blasting against Pentecostal worship and then by mid-point pose to be calling for "balance." Worship has many forms, some are just too dignified to participate in all of them. It's a shame. We have a good time with a good theology behind it.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by POWERUP

GP,

I think Aquietplace has said what I was trying to say. I love to Praise!!!! I have been in the Music Ministry my whole life.

But sometimes you have to find some balance.

I believe Praise and worship will help break some strongholds. But once again, it is going to have to go deeper than the Jericho March and blowing the Rams Horn!!!!!

GP I love your comments and Post. I guess what I am trying to say is............... Don't stop Worshiping.

But don't let that be what makes you. We have got to have some strong meat for this spiritual diet we are on.

And for what I said about the 50/50. You misunderstood me. I just wish I would have ministered to a lot deeper need.

Shout all you want. But when your kid comes home and says......... Mom, dad......I'm Gay!

Or, I have been on Crystal meth for 3 Months. What will we say??

Please don't say......... Oh, just shout it out!!!

Trust me. This can happen. It happened to some friends of my familys Kids.

There is somethings you just don't shout out.

GP keep Dancing. Just don't forget balance.

Have a Blessed Day!!!!

Amen to that.

[deltaguitar]

GP, I have no problem with people shouting or dancing or any of that stuff. But I do have a problem when folks start proclaiming that it is a higher form of worship and will bring the power down. And rolling around on the floor or jerking around isn't about letting down pride, the truth is that most view the ones doing all the shouting and stuff as the ones with the pride. Many times it is fleshly worship and exalts man.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

GP, I have no problem with people shouting or dancing or any of that stuff. But I do have a problem when folks start proclaiming that it is a higher form of worship and will bring the power down. And rolling around on the floor or jerking around isn't about letting down pride, the truth is that most view the ones doing all the shouting and stuff as the ones with the pride. Many times it is fleshly worship and exalts man.

Are dignified people never prideful? They have pride in a sense of who they are, seeing themselves a particular way, etc. Do some make a show, not for God, but for themselves? Certainly. But let the weeds grow with the tares.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

I don't get the people on this forum that are against Pentecostal worship.

The Spirit doesn't have to "move on me" for me to praise. These things can be done orderly, and random shouting in the mall is probably not the best witness to God. However, when believers are together and participating in a corporation time of celebration and worship, don't you think for a second that we are going to party down for Jesus. Maybe you all are referencing churches I'm not familiar with, but our church does it right. We shout, we meditate, we weep, we talk to God, we declare God's victory, we acknowledge Him, we celebrate Him, we run the full gamut.

These posts all start off with blasting against Pentecostal worship and then by mid-point pose to be calling for "balance." Worship has many forms, some are just too dignified to participate in all of them. It's a shame. We have a good time with a good theology behind it.

There should be freedom in worship but this shouting and jumping and running the aisle are just a part of the subculture that is old time pentecost. This form of worship is elevated to a "more pure" form of worship by many. Even your own example, "we do it right" sounds mighty prideful to me. Why does there have to be pressure put on people to worship God in a way that is just completely unnatural?

It is way easier to herk and jerk and then say that we let our pride down than to actually allow the Holy Spirit to move in our lives and make us face out own pride. This is why so many Pentecostal constantly seem to struggle because they have this spiritual high on Sunday nights and then fall off the charts the rest of the week. They are substituting a real move of God with emotion.

The stronger our faith and maturity in Christ becomes the less WE need an outward move or emotion to keep us grounded in Christ.

Again, there is nothing wrong with jumping and dancing but it is when we start to elevate these forms of worship and actually say that the power of God is there or that we "received a blessing" that we are leading people into a false understanding of God.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Are dignified people never prideful? They have pride in a sense of who they are, seeing themselves a particular way, etc. Do some make a show, not for God, but for themselves? Certainly. But let the weeds grow with the tares.

My point was that not shouting has nothing to do with pride. Self control and modesty is the opposite of pride.

[KWSS1976]

GP if you are going to do it might as well do it all the way not half way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvFCI2bsajM&feature=fvw

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

There should be freedom in worship but this shouting and jumping and running the aisle are just a part of the subculture that is old time pentecost. This form of worship is elevated to a "more pure" form of worship by many. Even your own example, "we do it right" sounds mighty prideful to me. Why does there have to be pressure put on people to worship God in a way that is just completely unnatural?

It is way easier to herk and jerk and then say that we let our pride down than to actually allow the Holy Spirit to move in our lives and make us face out own pride. This is why so many Pentecostal constantly seem to struggle because they have this spiritual high on Sunday nights and then fall off the charts the rest of the week. They are substituting a real move of God with emotion.

The stronger our faith and maturity in Christ becomes the less WE need an outward move or emotion to keep us grounded in Christ.

Again, there is nothing wrong with jumping and dancing but it is when we start to elevate these forms of worship and actually say that the power of God is there or that we "received a blessing" that we are leading people into a false understanding of God.

Do you not believe the HG moves on people in these situations? Do you think it's just all emotionalism?

I only said "we do it right" because of the assumed experiences of some posting on here where there is extreme dysfunction. I'm not boasting, but that's something our church has always done correctly. It wasn't saying it's better than others, I just said "we do it right."

Do some substitute their devotion to God with exhuberant praise? Sure. Should they? No. Likewise, there are thousands of churches full of liturgical worship and thousands of churches full of contemporary worship that people come, participate and leave the same -- subsituting their 'spiritual moment' for true devotion. This is a plague and problem across denominational lines and across forms of worship.