Read the Seagraves Document....

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

When you read his paper, he does not make the argument that mere mental assent is what saves.

Never said he did. My point is to the overall argument not to the selective and pointed scope Paul is making. Paul's point is Abraham was considered just before circumcision. This is absolutely correct. Pauls focus is on that circumcision is not directly the righteousing aspect. It's not a sacrament of righteousing as it must have a source not simple cutting flesh is righteous. In that it in itself, the action is not the source of God considering of righteous. Belief/knowledgeable agreement is the source of all action but not in itself either is what God judges/considers right. God judges/considers the witness in relation to the context of the Word given. The law of witness is constantly taught. Because God can only judge response to the context. Paul does not say through the moment of mental assent/belief. A moment of belief is not what Abraham "believed" is referring to. Abraham had already and was continuing to believe in God. he was already "just" before God. The point of James goes to a further depth of what Abraham "believed" is a reference to. James talks about completion and that the "scripture" was "fulfilled" that ABraham "believed" God and it was counted/considered to him as righteousness(or that which was just)

Notice the flow of thought is about the whole of what Gen 15:6 is about vs Paul simple point of before circumcision.

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder!

Notice believe is good concerning knowledge but it doesn't justify anyone per what James says.

Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; (notice the point of witness here)

Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. BROAD CONTEXT

He clearly points to Gen 15:6 and say scripture was fulfilled and IMMEDIATELY says not by faith alone but by works. How in the world can you say scripture is fulfilled "for" justification" in Gen 22 when many want to make Gen 15:6 a isolate verse in of itself FOR justification by belief. YOU CAN'T! Because JAmes is showing that Abraham "believed" is a view by the narrator of Abraham's response as a whole not simply that moment in time. Thus the narrator is simply giving a view of what WOULD HAPPEN and Abraham's response in total. Notice that the narrator himself breaks the rhythm of the passage as God is still speaking. God says what.

Gen 15:7 And he said to him, "I am the LORD who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess."
Gen 15:8 But he said, "O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?"
Gen 15:9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."
Gen 15:10 And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half.

Because Segraves says no response was immediate is incorrect. Why? Because James clearly shows it's not about the moment but the whole in view. God can only judge the response what is the flow of response from ABraham that he believed in the text? He asks God O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?" That is a righteous action directly AFTER the text which the narrator HAS IN VIEW OF BELIEVED not a simple moment in time. What does God say? BRING ME! What does Abraham do HE BROUGHT! Does God enter covenant at this "offering"? YES! To possess the land. Does this contradict Paul? NO! It's before circumcision! To say there is no immediate context within view of what "believed" would be is to negate what Gen 15:6 is as a narrative comment with something in view as James points out. IMMEDIATELY the context is seen of believed all the way to Gen 22 which James points out is the completion of Gen 15:6's view.

One of the strongest points in his article is the rightousness that God imputed into Abraham was imputed into him at the moment of faith-- not at the moment of action.

See above

He believed God.

again what is the context and view of believed by the narrator? James says it is a wide scope not a single moment.

Since Abraham believed God, Abraham did what he did out of honor and obedience to the One he believed.

Yes but the faith was considered/reckoned/judged right or just. Sure mental agreement is good but justice/judgment cannot determined until something is seen as evidence of the Word manifest. Trust is not seen nor can be judged until it is measured. Why does God test if he simply judges the heart beforehand? He doesn't! Trust must have a witness to be valid before God. God is legal and the immediate context shows Abraham was continuing or turned at heart before God. His witness is his reaction to God's Word minus the narrators comments. Which fits Paul's point!

He draws the parallel to the New Testament church, just like Paul did in the Book of Romans. Paraphrased, we are righteous in the same way that Abraham is righteous-- by faith.

Also faith does mean you are in covenant with God and have obtained right.
Notice Abraham questin of how to have right or how to obtain pomised.... God asks him to do.... he does, God judges it just and makes covenant to obtain or have right.

Now that faith will be the source of what we do, but Paul is very clear in distinguishing that Abraham and the New Testament church are justifed by faith-- and it is ONLY the Blood of Jesus that makes this imputation of righteousness possible.

sure one must believe and have knowledge before one can do. That is like saying I must have knowledge of something before I can act toward it. Mental assent is nice but it means nothing as it is not necessarily a motion toward the "context" of the Word or knowledge given.

In light of the covenant that Abraham had with God, he was circumcised-- a very Biblically defensible correlation with water baptism.

Baptism is God's work of seperation it is made WITHOUT hands by faith thus his response to our faith by coming to him forsaking all to obtain.

As far as the Promised Land, did Abraham ever see it? I don't think so. Nevertheless, Abraham still believed God and God called him righteous.

God considered his action righteous to obtain promise by covenant. Per James. He never saw it but as pointed out it was God's judgment of his actions he obtained. Which was demanded by God. Which is no different than what is required of NT believers to obtain eternal life.

[TheLegalist]

Would you like to draw a parallel here for the New Testament church? Acts 2:39 states, "For the PROMISE is unto you, and to your children and all those that are afar off...."

So within the context do you obtain the promise of Acts 2:38 by simple "God I believe what Peter said was true?" How do you obtain the promise by covenant within the context? What does Acts 2:38 say concerning promise to obtain? cf similar aspects at Gen 15:7-10. Did belief as in "God I believe what you said" in Gen 15:6 give him the right to obtain the land? Mental assent obtains nothing! That is the problem with how many people place Gen 15:6 context. Abraham obtains no covenant of his seed until Gen 22. He only obtains covenant unto obtaining the land until he does what God asks by faith to obtain.

God swears in Gen 22 a covenant...

Gen 22:16 and said, "By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,
Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."

He didn't obtain anything toward the multiplying his offspring until then. At that point God swears and oath. He had obtained a land promise by his leaving in Gen 12 and completed by his action in Gen 15 when asked how to obtain right to it. Which was a benefit to his offspring but not the blessing of multiplication of them unto all nations being blessed.

Notice covenant is still in view even here...

ESV
Gen 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless,
Gen 17:2 that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly."
Gen 17:3 Then Abram fell on his face. And God said to him,
Gen 17:4 "Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. (this would be like a reference to terms of agreement thus behold my covenant is WITH YOU)
Gen 17:5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.
Gen 17:8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God."
Gen 17:9 And God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant,(terms and conditions to obtain the covenant of Gen 22 which is progressive coventry) which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.

Notice he had to WALK before God could make covenant. Thus God is laying out terms and conditions to obtain. Thus abraham is judged to obtain rights to receive. Condition and terms of agreement are seen here but covenant is not finalized and closed until the condition are met. Which you see later which again is the point f Gen 15:6 of believed within view from Gen 15:7-10 to Gen 17 to Gen 22. Which God confirms Abrahams faith to obtain to Isaac in Gen 26 that Abraham was considered "just" at heart.... because he "believed". Which is a continous form not a "point" in time thus "followed" God.


Gen 26:4 I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,
Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Simple belief obtained nothing of the promise if that is what you think it is in Gen 15:6. Whether you think he was justified by mental assent or not at Gen 15:6 he obtained nothing of promise by mental assent. He obtained by obedience. Which CORRECTLY is the whole in view of "believed" in Gen 15:6. Standing before God is not ALL directed through circumcision which is partly Paul's point. Abraham was considered just before circumcision by the narrators view of Abraham's response in Gen 15 which is seen and follows verse 6 until completion in Gen 22.

I think you should read his article, along with your Bible.

He really is not saying anything that has not been said already from different points of view.

abraham's life of obtaining is clearly seen in

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. KJV

Same reason God gave Isaac why he realized the promise given Abraham.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Fifth, concerning a side note. Reference Acts 2:11-15. According to most Apostolics, these disciples of Christ were drunk on grape juice (what the scriptures identifies as ‘new wine’). Ever wonder why it is not a good idea to put new wine in an old wine skin? Because as the ‘new wine’ ferments, the gasses created will literally burst the old, weakened wine skin

I believe Jesus drank alcoholic wine. I hate the stuff, myself. But anyway, I am unaware of the technique of making wine, but would not wine already be fermented if it was alcoholic?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

So within the context do you obtain the promise of Acts 2:38 by simple "God I believe what Peter said was true?" How do you obtain the promise by covenant within the context? What does Acts 2:38 say concerning promise to obtain? cf similar aspects at Gen 15:7-10. Did belief as in "God I believe what you said" in Gen 15:6 give him the right to obtain the land? Mental assent obtains nothing! That is the problem with how many people place Gen 15:6 context. Abraham obtains no covenant of his seed until Gen 22. He only obtains covenant unto obtaining the land until he does what God asks by faith to obtain.

God swears in Gen 22 a covenant...

Gen 22:16 and said, "By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,
Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."

He didn't obtain anything toward the multiplying his offspring until then. At that point God swears and oath. He had obtained a land promise by his leaving in Gen 12 and completed by his action in Gen 15 when asked how to obtain right to it. Which was a benefit to his offspring but not the blessing of multiplication of them unto all nations being blessed.

Notice covenant is still in view even here...

ESV
Gen 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless,
Gen 17:2 that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly."
Gen 17:3 Then Abram fell on his face. And God said to him,
Gen 17:4 "Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. (this would be like a reference to terms of agreement thus behold my covenant is WITH YOU)
Gen 17:5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.
Gen 17:8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God."
Gen 17:9 And God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant,(terms and conditions to obtain the covenant of Gen 22 which is progressive coventry) which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.

Notice he had to WALK before God could make covenant. Thus God is laying out terms and conditions to obtain. Thus abraham is judged to obtain rights to receive. Condition and terms of agreement are seen here but covenant is not finalized and closed until the condition are met. Which you see later which again is the point f Gen 15:6 of believed within view from Gen 15:7-10 to Gen 17 to Gen 22. Which God confirms Abrahams faith to obtain to Isaac in Gen 26 that Abraham was considered "just" at heart.... because he "believed". Which is a continous form not a "point" in time thus "followed" God.


Gen 26:4 I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,
Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Simple belief obtained nothing of the promise if that is what you think it is in Gen 15:6. Whether you think he was justified by mental assent or not at Gen 15:6 he obtained nothing of promise by mental assent. He obtained by obedience. Which CORRECTLY is the whole in view of "believed" in Gen 15:6. Standing before God is not ALL directed through circumcision which is partly Paul's point. Abraham was considered just before circumcision by the narrators view of Abraham's response in Gen 15 which is seen and follows verse 6 until completion in Gen 22.



He really is not saying anything that has not been said already from different points of view.

abraham's life of obtaining is clearly seen in

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. KJV

Same reason God gave Isaac why he realized the promise given Abraham.

I will carefully read everything you have posted in your last 2 posts and will respond later, using the scriptures, context of the scriptures, and Seagraves' paper.

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I believe Jesus drank alcoholic wine. I hate the stuff, myself. But anyway, I am unaware of the technique of making wine, but would not wine already be fermented if it was alcoholic?

Hey Mike! Right on!

Yet, we are also talking about a process here, not a discrete event.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Justin

Here is the link where the document can be found.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Try the link on this post by Sam:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...79&postcount=6

Thanks peeps! Justin have I met you before? U look familiar....

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

does that include TURNING FROM ALL?

Ideally, yes; however I would allow for some crankiness and orneriness to sort of rise to the surface from time to time. If I didn't then I'd never get a chance to talk to you!

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Yes, I would agree!



correct! The opposite of faith though is enmity which is not doing his commandments.





I would agree that is is a worthwhile way to live but it's simply not about HEY this is a good thing to do but it is a contract issue of abiding to obtain.

I see the motivation ("... He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him") as being an element of faith that is essential. Of course, we aren't looking for temporal "rewards" like cash prizes and luxury electronic gadgetry. We are looking for that city "which hath foundations" (it's real) whose builder and maker is God.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I believe Jesus drank alcoholic wine. I hate the stuff, myself. But anyway, I am unaware of the technique of making wine, but would not wine already be fermented if it was alcoholic?

There is a "magical" process that takes place as wine ferments. I say "magical" because that is how most ancient cultures considered it. The juice of the grapes appears to "come alive" as it bubbles and foams. It would just do this "on its own" and so, many different cults and magical ceremonies developed around the phenomena.

Wine was often allowed to ferment in open basins around the time of the harvest. "New wine" was wine that was still "alive" and subject to the frothy bubbling. Even plain old grape juice has some alcohol content, unless it has been pasteurized and sealed in a modern canning process.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I see that someone said that there is a link somewhere for this paper. If it found can it be reposted in here?

NO debating we are saved by faith alone, but is he saying that he has more of a one-stepper mindset? Sam have you read the paper?

No, he is not saying that a person is saved by faith alone.
He says that a person is justified by faith alone.
He does not come off as a one-stepper. He differentiates justification from salvation.
Yes, I've read it.
I'm attaching a copy in pdf format

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Sam

No, he is not saying that a person is saved by faith alone.
He says that a person is justified by faith alone.
He does not come off as a one-stepper. He differentiates justification from salvation.
Yes, I've read it.
I'm attaching a copy in pdf format

Thanks. I will read it soon. So he is saying Justification and Salvation are not equals?