Tithing…Is it a command?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

Do you love God enough to put Him first, even in your finances? Yes or no.

Putting God first in one's finances is not in question here. A man made doctrine that proclaims God requires one to give ten percent of gross monetary income to the local church is in question here.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Actually the scriptures have whole chapters teaching tithing.
perhaps you need to rephrase your phrase.

You are correct. I will rephrase:

If we were Jews living in Israel and we made a living off the land (through crops or herds) and there was a Temple and a pure Levitical priesthood, then YES we would have an obligation, yea, a God given command to tithe.

But since none of those things apply, to say nothing of the Messiah who has now come, we Gentiles living under the New Covenant have no scriptural command to tithe, much less to tithe money.

Just to clarify.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

You are correct. I will rephrase:

If we were Jews living in Israel and we made a living off the land (through crops or herds) and there was a Temple and a pure Levitical priesthood, then YES we would have an obligation, yea, a God given command to tithe.

But since none of those things apply, to say nothing of the Messiah who has now come, we Gentiles living under the New Covenant have no scriptural command to tithe, much less to tithe money.

Just to clarify.

1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

There may be no NT command to pay ten percent of your income. There is a NT command to give as you have prospered and I believe that is more than a buck a week. That is fine not to say ten percent, but you would be wrong to make people think that they have a pardon not to be faithful with there finances.

I've said before, and I'll say it again, "you don't have to keep up with it and say you tithe, but if you are serving God, your giving will far exceed ten percent." You can find many times were Jesus commanded someone to give all, and many times people gave all. That is really NT examples. Any takers?

I'll not judge non-tithers, but I can acknowledge the fact that some are non-givers. I am not a rich pastor trying to get more out of the church, I have tried to always practice what I preach regardless of who was the beneficiary. I have always supported my family outside of the church and I don't feel like anyone owes me anything.

I would preach the rest of my life regardless if I ever received a penny from the churches that I've labored. Why? because I couldn't be happy if I wasn't preaching. I love the work of God and the greatest reward is to see souls saved. I am baptizing someone tomorrow in the name of Jesus and that is far greater than any dollar amount. Those who think they should only give to the poor you are missing a blessing. Bless the work of God and see for yourself!!!!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Amen. No one here is against giving.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

There may be no NT command to pay ten percent of your income.

EXACTLY. Come on in the waters fine.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

There is a NT command to give as you have prospered and I believe that is more than a buck a week. That is fine not to say ten percent, but you would be wrong to make people think that they have a pardon not to be faithful with there finances.

Generally speaking, yes. If someone gives a buck a week that is pathetic *IF* they are actually able to give more. I have a couple in my church who has been attending for over a year, and I don't think they have ever put any money in the box. But they struggle mightily. They just had their first child in October, they are married and living on their own with their own vehicle. None of that sounds impressive, but if you knew the whole story that in itself is amazing. They scrape by just to buy diapers and the things they need for the baby. Now does that mean they could never give anything, no I don't believe it does, but what if I said "except you give 10% of your income every week you can't be saved (or even God will not bless you)? It would be very hard on them, neither of which have a church background, and both who are coming from very difficult situations as the result of the double edged sword of sin and the world. But when we gave away groceries to families in need, the man took it upon himself to deliver groceries to a family who was not able to drive to the church because they didn't have a car. He also took it upon himself to give his bicycle away because he saw someone who needed it more than him (he had to travel by foot or bicycle until he was able to get a vehicle), and also gave $10 to someone in need. $10 isn't much to most of us, but when you live week to week in a motel that cost $140 and your weekly checks range from $120-$160 $10 makes a big difference, and for that matter so does tithing. This is not hypothetical. There are real people who are in this situation. So while I agree in principle with what you say, I strongly affirm that not everyone is able to give systematically, especially early in their Christian walk as they recover from all their bad choices while in the world. If we are really going to reach people they are not always going to come to us all cleaned up. There are going to be complicated situations. Broken lives. People who get their lives in unimaginable messes.

(Off topic)-I was preaching at the county jail a couple of weeks ago and a man who heard my preaching confessed to me that not only was he married, not only had he committed adultery, but he had impregnated 3 different woman (who are all currently pregnant) none of which is his wife, and worse they are (were) all each others friends. I was preaching on John 8, that guy is in a huge mess, I couldn't council him out of his mess, all I could tell Him was repent, and sin no more. When He gets out of jail he'll be broke the rest of his life, no matter how much money he makes child support will eat him up. It's his own fault. Complicated. I regularly minister in the jail and there are always people who've obviously made bad life choices, and many of them will affect them financially for years to come, either through child support (because in the world no one gets married anymore, they just make babies, and typically with 2 or 3 or 4 people), or through various fines or paying bail bondsman.

These people NEED the gospel. They NEED the Savior. Sin is destroying them, and many say they don't like going to church b/c when they do they are judged for the way they look (typically tattoo'd all over) and worse for their past (especially sex offenders whose pictures are published in the local news paper). So what if God gives me a ministry to reach these people (and by reach them I don't mean easily believism. I preach to them sin, the necessity of repentance, the exclusivity of Jesus Christ, turning from the world and walking in holiness [not standards-biblical holiness]) and I have seen some fruit from this ministry. So what if now I preach, except you give money to the church every week (or take it up a notch by setting it at 10%) then you can't be saved or blessed?

When we get down to it, tithing has nothing to do with our core message of proclaiming the Savior. It has nothing to do with the power of Jesus to set free even the worst of men. And it is not by silver, gold, or dollar bills that we are redeemed, but only by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. To link tithing in any way to salvation is absolutely sickening, because the ones it hurts the most are the ones who need God the worst.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I've said before, and I'll say it again, "you don't have to keep up with it and say you tithe, but if you are serving God, your giving will far exceed ten percent."

I really honestly do not know how much I give or whether or not it is more or less than 10%. You can say this but you have no biblical grounds to say it.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

You can find many times were Jesus commanded someone to give all, and many times people gave all. That is really NT examples. Any takers?

The only thing that comes to my mind at this point is the rich young ruler, and I think it is logical to believe Jesus wouldn't have demanded the man give everything, but was rather exposing his covetousness. We are told the early church in Acts 2 had all things in common, but by the time we get to the end of Acts 4 and early part of 5 we see they still owned land, we see in Acts 2 they still had houses to meet in. Even after Simon and Andrew left all to follow Jesus, we still see Jesus go to their house a couple of times. Off the top of my head I can't think of any command in the NT where someone was told to give up everything (all money, land, houses, clothing, livestock, everything except the shirt on their back). So I'm not seeing the point.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I'll not judge non-tithers, but I can acknowledge the fact that some are non-givers.

Agreed 100%. Some use non tithing as a cloak for greed, in which case they have a bigger problem than money, they need salvation, for Paul said the greedy will not inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). But again I say, lets just assume for a moment. I am greedy. I do not want to give. Does that make my biblical argument any less legitimate? Your assertion is correct, but its not relevant to whether or not the Bible teaches us we have to tithe, which you appear to admit it does not in your opening line of this post.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I am not a rich pastor trying to get more out of the church, I have tried to always practice what I preach regardless of who was the beneficiary. I have always supported my family outside of the church and I don't feel like anyone owes me anything.

You seem like a nice guy too. My first pastor preached tithes or hell hard. But he always worked and never took anything from the church. I always respected him even after my views changed (even though he told me I'd go to hell if I didn't believe in tithing). In all my responses I'm not saying a pastor has no right to be supported by a church. The only thing I deny is that the pastor has a right to live luxuriously off the church. Which while yes that is a subjective statement, I think we could all agree pastors with 2 mansions, private jets, a closet full of rolex watches, etc crosses that line.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I would preach the rest of my life regardless if I ever received a penny from the churches that I've labored. Why? because I couldn't be happy if I wasn't preaching.

AMEN. Not everyone would though.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I love the work of God and the greatest reward is to see souls saved. I am baptizing someone tomorrow in the name of Jesus and that is far greater than any dollar amount. Those who think they should only give to the poor you are missing a blessing. Bless the work of God and see for yourself!!!!

[Rudy]

U.T. can a person attend your church without tithing money?

[UnTraditional]

I refuse to rob God, listen to man, and ........ my soul to hell. You make believers thieves and robbers. You claim to love God, but strain at a gnat. In other words, I feel so sorry for those on here in this deception, this thievery, this self idolatry. Remember, on that day when you stand before Jesus, you stand without excuse.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

I refuse to rob God, listen to man, and ........ my soul to hell. You make believers thieves and robbers. You claim to love God, but strain at a gnat. In other words, I feel so sorry for those on here in this deception, this thievery, this self idolatry. Remember, on that day when you stand before Jesus, you stand without excuse.

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.


12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

I refuse to rob God, listen to man, and ........ my soul to hell. You make believers thieves and robbers.

You claim I make believers thieves and robbers. I say this to you:

You make God a tyrant looking for a reason to destroy us. A sanctified mafia boss who must be paid weekly to ensure his continuing protection in ones life. You make God a landlord looking for his check on time every week or month. You make God a divine IRS agent, counting pennies. 9.75% will never do. It is the full 10% of straight to prison (hell) for you. You despise the blood of Christ to say that our money adds anything to our redemption He purchased for us. You my mistaken brother actually malign the character of God, and by commit the sin of idolatry creating God in your own image, thinking he hates the same people you hate (non-tithers). You distort the gospel. And you are eaten up with self righteous pride having zeal with no knowledge.

Who are you trying to fool brother? I've seen you actually be a really nice and balanced guy. I'm not sure what ministry you've become entangled with this time, but I can tell you the fruit is rotten.

[Jason B]

You asked me a question, I responded with this:

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Yes, I believe so (while at the same time being honest enough to say that while I desire to love the LORD my God as I ought to, I am not sure there has ever been a moment in my life I loved Him as I ought to nor as He deserves to be loved. So I am qualifying my YES answer with the admission of my constant failure, lest I should be presumptive and self righteous).

I would turn your question around by asking you, do you love God enough to put Him first, even in your finances? Yes or no?

Before you answer "YES" because you give 10%, bear in mind that we are only to love God, but to love our neighbor. I really don't care what you give to a church to maintain a decent building with carpet, air conditioning, padded pews, and nice sound equipment, and the monthly electric, water, and phone bills. We're not commanded to do any of those things (nor are we forbidden to if we desire, but lets not confuse giving to the church system giving to God, they are not one in the same).

How much have you given to help feed children around the world? To disaster victims? To missionaries? To help the families of martyrs or those persecuted for their fair (or do you even care about them since they probably haven't spoken in tongues-thus are unsaved anyway)?

Let me go further-how many people have you (not the church) helped in the last year to pay their electric bill? Their rent? Bought groceries for their families? Helped them fix their car? And so on.

You tell me, in the New Testament context of giving, is God more pleased for us to give money to a church that already has all its bills paid and $27,000 in the bank account while some people (and lets just say within the church right now, not outsiders) struggle to get by -OR- is God more pleased when we see a brother or sister in need and we help them financially by giving from our resources to help ease their burden EVEN IF that means we don't have anything to put in the plate on Sunday? Which one is giving to God? I would argue both. If someone pays $225 for a motel for a homeless man one week and doesn't put anything in the church offering for a couple weeks, is that man going to hell for robbing God? You tell me. If someone comes in off the street and doesn't have groceries, and asks for food, but the pastor slips out the side door and you're the only one who can help that person, so you take from your own families budget to help that person have some groceries to take home to their children living in a run down ghetto apartment, does that make God angry? You don't have to tell me who you've helped or not helped, just consider the question. You're condemning some of us to hell when you don't even know our priorities in life. You don't know our giving.

NO ONE that I know of is advocating greediness, hoarding, or denying that God loves a cheerful giver, OR even the principle that if you sow bountifully you will reap bountifully, but if you sow sparingly you will reap sparingly. I'm not even sure anyone is saying NOT to give to a church (I pastor a church, God forbid someone NOT give to the church), but if you equate all giving to God with a formal tithing system you are very confused.

At my church we do not even take up an offering. We have a box at the back of the sanctuary, and people can give as they desire and as they are able to. And I'll tell you this, if I find out that someone in my church passed up on helping someone in need to give their $50 check to the church that week I would be very upset with them. We can't all fix the world, but if God puts someone in our path during the week and we have the ability to help them, and we do not, then how can we say the love of Christ dwells in us?
If we have the opportunity to help someone but we withhold our "tithe" then do we not call it Corban?

And this:

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Untraditional, I answered your yes or no question, but you have avoided mine. Perhaps you missed it, here it is again, YES or NO:
Do the scriptures teach New Testament all saints everywhere and for all times must pay a tithe(10%) of money to the local church"? YES or NO.

And this is your response? Is it too much just to give a yes or no to the question in red/

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

I refuse to rob God, listen to man, and ........ my soul to hell. You make believers thieves and robbers. You claim to love God, but strain at a gnat. In other words, I feel so sorry for those on here in this deception, this thievery, this self idolatry. Remember, on that day when you stand before Jesus, you stand without excuse.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

I refuse to rob God, listen to man, and ........ my soul to hell. You make believers thieves and robbers. You claim to love God, but strain at a gnat. In other words, I feel so sorry for those on here in this deception, this thievery, this self idolatry. Remember, on that day when you stand before Jesus, you stand without excuse.

Demonizing again eh? Good way to prove your case.