1:1 In the beginning, God created the singularity. And the singularity expanded rapidly, and there was much ruckus but no protons, electrons, neutrons, neither were there any quarks. And the singularity and the great expansion were the first femtosecond.
The the beginning there was a thing. This thing exploded and the fragments formed the earth and the sun moon and stars.
It wouldn't need to be highly scientific to be truthful.
The Gap Theory attempts to place the creation account within the parameters of what we know to be the great ages of the earth. This is fine, up to a point.
We must remember that the Bible's narrative was divinely inspired and so we should be careful about how we attempt to manipulate it's meaning. I don't think the Gap Theory goes too far in most cases, but still, we are attempting to put the words of God into a setting that is alien to their original usage.
In my humble opinion, the best approach is to see the story as it was originally given - and understand that it was given to an ancient people. We're "reading their mail..." so to speak. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us to understand how their worldview was comprised in order that we may understand the message that they received.
Having done that - we should still be careful to understand our world and not try and pretend that it doesn't exist.
Excellent thoughts!
A great deal of my desire to lean on science to help solve my Biblical questions or ideas comes from many years of experience, where my Trust has been violated. It also comes from me depressing the Trust of others.
We all know, Religion plays on the Unseen. It always has. In the beginning stages of a Christian’s life, this can be an enjoyable journey where Faith (or Trust in the unseen) is vibrant and un-violated. But, as time goes on, and if we stick with our particular Religion, one by one, the walls begin to come down. What we never thought would happen, does.
People fail, prophecies don't come to pass, healings never happen, speaking in tongues becomes a "Pressured" experience, children backslide even though you raise them to fear God, families fall apart, preachers end up molesting children, money becomes a "Praise" report, Church celebrities are worshipped, and so on.
In the end, or along the way, Trust is so violated we don't know who to believe. Then comes along somebody else trying to feed us another platter of "Maybes". We get to the point, the only answer that really means anything is the one that can be proven, not assumed. In other words, give us the FACTS.
I feel it is not only my moral obligation to give people the Facts, it is what God expects of me. I'm so insistent about this, that even our Bible MUST be put under a spotlight, because this Book is causing a great deal of confusion in the World, which in turn severs the most important channel to a persons heart; Trust.
I would feel differently if we could agree and conclude the same things, but it seems that conclusions must be reached with the Facts, otherwise the World spins in the deceit of the "Unproven".
The Gap Theory attempts to place the creation account within the parameters of what we know to be the great ages of the earth. This is fine, up to a point.
We must remember that the Bible's narrative was divinely inspired and so we should be careful about how we attempt to manipulate it's meaning. I don't think the Gap Theory goes too far in most cases, but still, we are attempting to put the words of God into a setting that is alien to their original usage.
In my humble opinion, the best approach is to see the story as it was originally given - and understand that it was given to an ancient people. We're "reading their mail..." so to speak. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us to understand how their worldview was comprised in order that we may understand the message that they received.
Having done that - we should still be careful to understand our world and not try and pretend that it doesn't exist.
I believe that the Bible is God's Word and therefore all that we see should be filtered through that Word.
Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve who partook of forbidden fruit at the suggestion of Satan in the form of a serpent? Do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead?
Our knowledge can only cover so much and that knowledge is but a grain of sand compared to God's ocean of knowledge, power, and ability. How can we look at the Bible and say, "Naw, that didn't or couldn't happen."?
A great deal of my desire to lean on science to help solve my Biblical questions or ideas comes from many years of experience, where my Trust has been violated. It also comes from me depressing the Trust of others.
We all know, Religion plays on the Unseen. It always has. In the beginning stages of a Christian’s life, this can be an enjoyable journey where Faith (or Trust in the unseen) is vibrant and un-violated. But, as time goes on, and if we stick with our particular Religion, one by one, the walls begin to come down. What we never thought would happen, does.
People fail, prophecies don't come to pass, healings never happen, speaking in tongues becomes a "Pressured" experience, children backslide even though you raise them to fear God, families fall apart, preachers end up molesting children, money becomes a "Praise" report, Church celebrities are worshipped, and so on.
In the end, or along the way, Trust is so violated we don't know who to believe. Then comes along somebody else trying to feed us another platter of "Maybes". We get to the point, the only answer that really means anything is the one that can be proven, not assumed. In other words, give us the FACTS.
I feel it is not only my moral obligation to give people the Facts, it is what God expects of me. I'm so insistent about this, that even our Bible MUST be put under a spotlight, because this Book is causing a great deal of confusion in the World, which in turn severs the most important channel to a persons heart; Trust.
I would feel differently if we could agree and conclude the same things, but it seems that conclusions must be reached with the Facts, otherwise the World spins in the deceit of the "Unproven".
I don't see the Bible as causing confusion. I see man's limited understanding causing confusion.
I believe that the Bible is God's Word and therefore all that we see should be filtered through that Word.
Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve who partook of forbidden fruit at the suggestion of Satan in the form of a serpent? Do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead?
I've already answered that many, many times. You however keep dodging the question of whatever became of that literal firmament?
Where is it? Why is there no watery abyss beyond our atmosphere? Our astronauts and spacecraft fly through the near vacuum of space - not plow through water like a submarine.
Why doesn't a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 - 11, make any literal sense with the reality of our world?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
Our knowledge can only cover so much and that knowledge is but a grain of sand compared to God's ocean of knowledge, power, and ability. How can we look at the Bible and say, "Naw, that didn't or couldn't happen."?
Because we can look at the sky and see that there never was a literal firmament nor a watery abyss there.
The stars don't "twinkle" because we see them set in a vast pool of a cosmic ocean and water. They twinkle due to the heat shimmers in the atmosphere. You and I know that - the ancients thought there was just a bunch of water "up there" - a vast cosmic sea.
Our puny knowledge has ruled out the literal firmament and the literal Abyss. Why do you insist that they exist? I know, you don't really, you don't want to get pinned down to actual literalism when it comes to Genesis. Like so many others you appear to want to pick and choose.
Why not just accept the body of literature for what it is while also accepting the real world for what it is. There is not nor was there ever a literal firmament. Can you agree to that statement?
I've already answered that many, many times. You however keep dodging the question of whatever became of that literal firmament?
Where is it? Why is there no watery abyss beyond our atmosphere? Our astronauts and spacecraft fly through the near vacuum of space - not plow through water like a submarine.
Why doesn't a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 - 11, make any literal sense with the reality of our world?
Because we can look at the sky and see that there never was a literal firmament nor a watery abyss there.
The stars don't "twinkle" because we see them set in a vast pool of a cosmic ocean and water. They twinkle due to the heat shimmers in the atmosphere. You and I know that - the ancients thought there was just a bunch of water "up there" - a vast cosmic sea.
Our puny knowledge has ruled out the literal firmament and the literal Abyss. Why do you insist that they exist? I know, you don't really, you don't want to get pinned down to actual literalism when it comes to Genesis. Like so many others you appear to want to pick and choose.
Why not just accept the body of literature for what it is while also accepting the real world for what it is. There is not nor was there ever a literal firmament. Can you agree to that statement?
I believe that God’s Word clearly explains that there is a firmament separating the waters from below from the waters which are above. I know that the ancients envisioned this is a rudimentary way. However, even though we know more about this “firmament” (atmostphere) today it is still a barrier between earth and the debris of space. We also know that water in the form of ice is the most abundant element in the known universe. We see immense interstellar clouds 10,000 times larger than our Sun that are full of frozen water vapor. So not only do we know that we have an atmospheric barrier in the sky above our world that protects us from debris from outer space (a firmament), we also know that beyond this atmosphere there is a universe full of interstellar clouds containing immeasurable tons of frozen water vapor (i.e. waters above the firmament).
While the physics are a bit different from the concept found in the ancient cosmology there is indeed a literal firmament and there is indeed literal water above the firmament.
Next question…
P.S.
As for the firmament not being “solid”… try flying a space craft into our atmosphere without any regard to trajectory at a high rate of speed. See if it doesn’t burst into flame and fall to bits as it tries to penetrate the firmament. Come in at an angle and see if your ship will not “skip” across the firmament like rocks across the surface of a pond as your craft is torn to pieces by the friction caused when the firmament is opposing you. Fast moving objects from space with little density often hit the firmament and burst as though they hit a brick wall.
How many did Samson kill with the Jaw Bone of a Donkey?
Chris, the Old Testament if FULL of blood and the killing of innocent people.
Then Jesus comes to this World and tells us to "Love our Enemy", "Turn the other Cheek".
I see this as a problem rooted in the lack of systematic theology. In the Old Testament you have a series of covenants. The Mosaic Covenant established a nation of people. This nation of people was to preserve the Word of God (the Bible) and provide a righteous blood line from which Messiah would be born. With God’s people being a nation you have to remember that the nations surrounding Israel were hostile not only to God but to God’s people. Had the Amalekites had their way every innocent Israelite would have been slaughtered and then there would be no Bible or Messiah to redeem mankind; same with the Philistines and the entire host of Israel’s enemies.
You also have to consider… all these nations belong to God. God alone has the authority to order the destruction of a nation. God alone knows their hearts. God alone knows the end from the beginning and what is necessary to preserve His Word and to redeem mankind.
When Jesus came on the scene the Tanakh was complete and being widely read throughout the Roman Empire in synagogues. Jesus atoned for mankind and now the Messianic mission was complete. When the Jews rejected Jesus they sealed their fate as a nation. It was because of their rejection of Jesus that God sent the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and take the people captive into all the nations. Now preserving a nation to harbor His Word and to birth the Messiah was unnecessary. The full message of salvation was complete for all of mankind. Now we live by the law of love that God intended from the beginning.
In addition, “Thou shalt not kill.”, is better translated, “Thou shalt not murder.”
I see this as a problem rooted in the lack of systematic theology. In the Old Testament you have a series of covenants. The Mosaic Covenant established a nation of people. This nation of people was to preserve the Word of God (the Bible) and provide a righteous blood line from which Messiah would be born. With God’s people being a nation you have to remember that the nations surrounding Israel were hostile not only to God but to God’s people. Had the Amalekites had their way every innocent Israelite would have been slaughtered and then there would be no Bible or Messiah to redeem mankind; same with the Philistines and the entire host of Israel’s enemies.
You also have to consider… all these nations belong to God. God alone has the authority to order the destruction of a nation. God alone knows their hearts. God alone knows the end from the beginning and what is necessary to preserve His Word and to redeem mankind.
When Jesus came on the scene the Tanakh was complete and being widely read throughout the Roman Empire in synagogues. Jesus atoned for mankind and now the Messianic mission was complete. When the Jews rejected Jesus they sealed their fate as a nation. It was because of their rejection of Jesus that God sent the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and take the people captive into all the nations. Now preserving a nation to harbor His Word and to birth the Messiah was unnecessary. The full message of salvation was complete for all of mankind. Now we live by the law of love that God intended from the beginning.
In addition, “Thou shalt not kill.”, is better translated, “Thou shalt not murder.”
Is it murder to put a sword through the belly of a child? How about an elderly person who is helpless? What about a woman who is pregnant?
Your explanation is full of holes (maybes, what ifs, might be's), not to mention a human being has always been a human being.
Today, there are hostile Nations on Earth that declare the Christian Faith a False Doctrine. The Country of Iran has leadership that considers Israel an all out threat to Planet Earth and would like to blow them off the map. Would a mass genocide of this Nation be accepted today? The Philistines still live next door to the Jews. Why not Nuke them?
Why shouldn't we have exterminated the Germans? Allow the Jews to go into this Country that attempted to genocide them.
You make it sound like it was different back then. The World has always been hostile. The theories you present are what all do to protect a false idea. It's "Out of Sight, Out of Mind". It's not today, so it's easy to explain it away with notions that are not only inhumane, but downright evil.
Bring genocide into your backyard, then judge. Look into the faces of these dead people, or watch the slaughter take place, then give us your theory.
Also, the full message to Mankind was not finished in Word when Jesus came. The New Testament hadn't even been written yet.
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