Going back to the UPC

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

This is something I am willing to do, not being forced. We had made a comfortable choice on how to raise our kids and I think this is the best way until they are able to choose for themselves. This is in no way like a marriage staying together for the children while the marriage is not working. Us going to seperate churches is working well. I just want to be a good leader and a better father. At time I was putting my own wants over the family, honestly. That is not right. This is better for us and if it does not work out then we will know a change is to be made.

However way this fits your situation, I feel the Lord's will is most important for your family and yourself. Part of leading a family as a Father and Husband is going to the church YOU feel is God's will for you and your family. If you would go to a church you do not feel is God's will, then you are out of His will, period. Church is more serious than that. I think that putting concern for family BEFORE where God wants you to attend church is making a mistake.

So it is not putting WANTS before the family but God's WILL for church. If you simply are offkey in what you want and you feel it is NOT God's will for you to go to the non-UPC church, anyway, then you simply need to go to the church God wills for you to go to, either way.

I am speaking general principles here.

We cannot put family before God's will for Church. That is what Jesus meant when he said we may have to deny wife, son and daughter for the sake of the will of God. The general truth is that where we attend church ought to be determined by the will of God, due to the teaching of the word, etc, and not where our family wants to be instead. As head of the house, your job is to lead your family in what church is the will of God. And your wife should follow you. If she does not and you KNOW it is God's will for a certain church she does not wish to attend, she is out of the will of God. And your family is out of order anyway.

Now, I am not for making wives doormats, and I am in socal where women are beaten to nothingness, IMO. lol. But with the right attitude and proper love, the family must attend where the Man of the house feels it is God's will. Otherwise, one is just making peace where there should be a sword. lol

Peace does not always indicate the will of God.

Matthew 10:34-35 KJV Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Luke 14:26-27 KJV If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (27) And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.


I summary decisions of where to attend church are not to be made from a standpoint of what gives more peace, but rather what God's will is for the family in the heart the husband/father. Any other choice is disobedience to the will of God.

Again, I am speaking generally, and in no way personally to you, since I do not know the churches in question.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by mfblume

However way this fits your situation, I feel the Lord's will is most important for your family and yourself. Part of leading a family as a Father and Husband is going to the church YOU feel is God's will for you and your family. If you would go to a church you do not feel is God's will, then you are out of His will, period. Church is more serious than that. I think that putting concern for family BEFORE where God wants you to attend church is making a mistake.

So it is not putting WANTS before the family but God's WILL for church. If you simply are offkey in what you want and you feel it is NOT God's will for you to go to the non-UPC church, anyway, then you simply need to go to the church God wills for you to go to, either way.

I am speaking general principles here.

We cannot put family before God's will for Church. That is what Jesus meant when he said we may have to deny wife, son and daughter for the sake of the will of God. The general truth is that where we attend church ought to be determined by the will of God, due to the teaching of the word, etc, and not where our family wants to be instead. As head of the house, your job is to lead your family in what church is the will of God. And your wife should follow you. If she does not and you KNOW it is God's will for a certain church she does not wish to attend, she is out of the will of God. And your family is out of order anyway.

Now, I am not for making wives doormats, and I am in socal where women are beaten to nothingness, IMO. lol. But with the right attitude and proper love, the family must attend where the Man of the house feels it is God's will. Otherwise, one is just making peace where there should be a sword. lol

Peace does not always indicate the will of God.

Matthew 10:34-35 KJV Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Luke 14:26-27 KJV If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (27) And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.


I summary decisions of where to attend church are not to be made from a standpoint of what gives more peace, but rather what God's will is for the family in the heart the husband/father. Any other choice is disobedience to the will of God.

Again, I am speaking generally, and in no way personally to you, since I do not know the churches in question.

Here in lies the flaws in you first statement. If God's will is for me to go a certain church and my famiy does not follow, but my first responsiblity is to be the leader and keep peace then I would be wrong on both accounts. The truth is there is no middle ground except for me to return.

I know you are speaking generalities, but the truth it is not general for me. God command to a husband is to be the leader and keep the peace. I do not think the will of God is always in a certain place. It can be but I do not think it really breaks down to that here. I did at one time and that is part of why I left, but now I am not so sure. If I kept going the way it was before going to seperate churches it would have probably caused a divorce and that is not a valid reason for a divorce. If I can change the out come of a bad situation to a good situation then how is that against God's will, ya know? I know that God understands my heart. He will lead differently if He wants. He will let my wife know if it is 'His will' for us to go. I was told by a wise man once that if God calls a husband to something He will also call the wife and there will be confirmation. Well in this situation, well over a year with no confirmation of her following me being the right choice. After 1 weekend of my choice to return I have confirmation. That is what speaks to me.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Here in lies the flaws in you first statement. If God's will is for me to go a certain church and my famiy does not follow, but my first responsiblity is to be the leader and keep peace then I would be wrong on both accounts. The truth is there is no middle ground except for me to return.

That is not what I said. lol

If God will for you to go to a certain church, and your family refuses, you are not to make peace by doing what the family wants. That is not God's will for peace. You do not trade will of God for church for will of God for peace. God wills that we abandon peace if it will cost us His will for church.

We do not choose peace over God's will for choice.

I think God's word teaches priorities should be as follows:

1) Where to go in God's will for church.

2) Peace.

If number 2 cannot work with Number 1, then Number 1 STILL stays intact, and Number 2 suffers.

We never trade God's will for church with whatever makes peace in the family.

I know you are speaking generalities, but the truth it is not general for me. God command to a husband is to be the leader and keep the peace.

...But not at the expense of God's will for church.

I do not think the will of God is always in a certain place.

In divergent churches with divergent beliefs, either one is the will of God over the other, or neither are the will of God. In that case we need to find WHAT CHURCH is God's will.

It can be but I do not think it really breaks down to that here. I did at one time and that is part of why I left, but now I am not so sure.

If you are not sure, then you need to find out which church is God's will where your family should be. That may include time allowed for your family to be wherever until you sort through and learn God's will. But, whatever the case, you cannot stay away from God's will for your church due to other issues, even peace in your family.

If I kept going the way it was before going to seperate churches it would have probably caused a divorce and that is not a valid reason for a divorce.

If a man knows it is God's will to go to a certain church, and it leads to divorce, let divorce come! That is extreme, but we cannot put family peace before God's will. That is the only way to look at it. We cannot deny God's will for our wives, but must deny our wives for God's will. Jesus distinctly said that.

Church is THAT important. What we are taught about God and whom we make our pastor is THAT important. That is why we need to know what is the will of God for our family for a church. It is serious business.

If I can change the out come of a bad situation to a good situation then how is that against God's will, ya know?

We NEVER trade what we KNOW is God's will for Church for ANYTHING else. Not even peace.

If we forsake a known will of God in order to have peace with people, then we are wrong. Even for family! Why else do you think Jesus spoke of "hating" wife and children for His sake? If we are to ensure peace in our families at the cost of the will of God, then what did Jesus mean in those scriptures I quoted?

Martyrs could have had PEACE with their society by abandoning their faith. Would that be God's will? Families have cut off members of the family due to one finding truth and refusing to deny genuine truth. Should they have instead abandoned truth for family peace?

I know that God understands my heart. He will lead differently if He wants.

If you do not know where God wants you in church, then I agree. I am just saying you cannot trade God's will for family peace, when you know what His will is for church.

Put it this way... God's will for a church is GREATER and supersedes His will for peace in a family.

He will let my wife know if it is 'His will' for us to go.

NOT NECESSARILY.

If she is right with God, yes. And maybe still He will not tell her. That is the purpose of MAN being head of the family. God speaks to the head. And the head directs the body. Put it this way... .we re never to wait until the wife hears from God, if we have already heard from God as the man of the house. And a godly wife will agree with this.

I was told by a wise man once that if God calls a husband to something He will also call the wife and there will be confirmation.

Maybe and maybe not. I have no bible to say a man must wait for God to speak to his wife. Again, a godly wife will agree.

I do not believe God speaks to the wife about spiritual matters for the family. Man is the spiritual head of the wife in these cases. He may confirm it to her, but not necessarily.

Well in this situation, well over a year with no confirmation of her following me being the right choice. After 1 weekend of my choice to return I have confirmation. That is what speaks to me.

What do you think IS the confirmation? Peace? Peace may conflict with God's will at times. Really!

If you were wrong to go to the other church, then you were out of God;s will to begin with.

If you are not sure what God wants then all I said will not apply to you. But if you KNOW you heard from God, why be head of the house if you need confirmation from your wife? Anyway, this all depends upon what you KNOW as God's will and what you may not know.

[Margies3]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

I'm curious about those that have made comments about disagreeing with the pastor what exactly is meant by disagreeing.

We do not follow standards and I plan on telling my daughter that we disagree with the pastor in that area. I don't think that's undermining his spiritual authority. What say ye?

I think if you don't believe in the standards preached by a pastor but can attend that church without being disagreeable - fine. If you disagree with him and feel like you need to challenge his authority at every turn and are argumentative and disagreeable about it, then maybe you really need to look somewhere else.

If I was going to go to a standards church and spend my time trying to convince others that they should ignore the pastor's teachings on standards, then I would be in the wrong. At that point, I should be looking for a different church.

Originally Posted by dizzyde

I have no problem with telling your daughter that you disagree with what ever points that you do (however if you were to disagree with most things, I have trouble understanding why you would go to the church), but the problem comes when a parent is belittling, critical or mocking of the Pastor. Anything that would undermine her respect for him or the ministry in general.

If you cannot show a respect for the Pastor of whatever assembly you are in, you are far better off to change to a church where you can have that respect. IMHO.

Exactly!

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Acutally they all love me for whatever reason. Even my old youth group is like stoked I am coming back though I am not going to be the youth leader. Even a person I was at odds with is SOOOOOO excited, that is the words that person used. I am not excluded from anything. Infact the UPC Pastor and I play golf with each other every couple of weeks and I wear shorts and he doesn't care. Only people that care seem to be other saints though most of them have no idea I wear shorts or go to movies.

This fact tells me more than anything else I've read on here today. It sounds to me like you already have a working relationship with this pastor and that you will be able to sit under his ministry without compromising your own beliefs. He sounds like a commendable pastor to me. And you sound like a husband who should be commended for putting the needs of his family above his own desires. Good for you

[Sam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sounds like the sort of situation where a couple stays together only for the sake of the kids, while the marriage itself is not working. ...

Well, I heard about a couple who stayed together for years because of the children---- neither one of them wanted custody.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sam

Well, I heard about a couple who stayed together for years because of the children---- neither one of them wanted custody.

Whew.. Some people.... lol

[GodsBabyGirl]

Originally Posted by Sam

Well, I heard about a couple who stayed together for years because of the children---- neither one of them wanted custody.

LOLOL!!!!

[deltaguitar]

JT, you are probably doing the right thing. What you are doing is courageous and as long as the pastor understands where you are coming from things should be fine. What you are doing for your wife is showing amazing leadership as well as selfless love.

[chaotic_resolve]

Good luck, JT. I'll keep you in my prayers. Lord knows you're going to need it. LoL

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

Good luck, JT. I'll keep you in my prayers. Lord knows you're going to need it. LoL

A very unbiased opinion from my friend. LOL Welcome back...it does seem that this is you







(TIC)