Question

[Maple Leaf]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

What if, while Jesus was about to be crucified...... the Roman Soldier who pierced his side giving him the final blow of death... decided to use his free will and SCREAM out.. "I CAN"t DO THIS, I WON'T DO THIS"

Does our salvation depend on Predestination or Free will?

Not wanting a fight just honest to goodness discussion of the issue

John 19:30-34 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."

A little aside from the current topic.

The soldier did not give Jesus the final blow of death.

Jesus was already dead when the soldier thrust the spear into His side.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

So do I, but I qualify it by saying they are predestined by the foreknowledge of God. IOW before creation God didn't arbitrarily pick and chose who He would justifiy and glorify but He saw the choices we made through our free will He gave us and then He predestined and then He created.

Then you believe exactly as William Marrion Branham preached it...

Originally Posted by Maple Leaf

A little aside from the current topic.

The soldier did not give Jesus the final blow of death.

Jesus was already dead when the soldier thrust the spear into His side.

We've already acknowledged that... then we asked what if the Solider refused to BEAT HIM to a pulp. thus leading to his final death?

[stasis]

Is salvation contingent on man's will or God's will? Let's see.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Eph 1:11
"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

Notice, 1:11 doesn't say SOME things, but ALL things. Including your decisions. If you have faith, it is because God arbitrarily chose to place it in you. Repentance is evidence of faith, and only God can cause a man to realize his maggoty nature. Without God's sovereign intervention implanting a new desire to be formed into the image of Christ, we would careen into hell (evidently being vessels of wrath, bastards who are not given the gift of submission to God's reproof and discipline). God alone is responsible for every phase of salvation, as the 'choices' we make toward salvation were not only enabled, but ordained by him. Fear before him!

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Notice... read closely. This is another PREDESTINATION VERSE. It is saying "All of those who received Christ, did so because God gave them the power to receive him." After all, only the Sons of God can receive (agree with) Christ and (I might add) afterward speak the same words he did (homologeo - 'confess', as in 'confess his name/onoma/authority, i.e. tell men about his absolute sovereignty.))

Salvation DOES NOT (and cannot) depend on man's 'free-will' ('sin-will'), but on God alone, who is the only force that can rouse a man from the dead that he may see the reproach of his sins, giving him the tendency to walk in perpetual repentance. A dead man cannot bring himself to life. Only God can do this. Asking a dead man to 'accept Christ' is like walking up to a casket, holding out a dollar bill and saying 'You can have this money if you come back to life and take it from my hand'.

Also, 'whosoever' does not mean 'who ever wants to'. I do not intent to offend, but that is a very appalaichan way of reading scripture. 'Whosoever' specifies a particular group of 'whos', those who believe, and only God can grant the ability to believe.

"Whichsoever pigs grow wings can fly" does not mean "The pigs that choose to grow wings can fly". Rather, is simply states that the specific pigs who grew wings can fly. The factor of the pigs' 'will' is null, not even mentioned.

Now with this in mind, review these:
"Whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13). "Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (John 11:26). "Whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43). "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God" (I John 4:15).

Also, Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

In other words, the water of life flows without restraint for those who desire to drink of it. However, according to the fullness of scripture, there is a catch. Firstly, only those who are sheep, given by the Father to Christ before time, will answer the call of "Come". Only those who have faith, which is the gift of God, will desire and thirst for the water of life (blunt truth). So it's clear that 'drinking the water of life' is not contingent on 'free-will' either. God's sovereignty reigns.

Originally Posted by stasis

Is salvation contingent on man's will or God's will? Let's see.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Eph 1:11
"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

Notice, 1:11 doesn't say SOME things, but ALL things. Including your decisions. If you have faith, it is because God arbitrarily chose to place it in you. Repentance is evidence of faith, and only God can cause a man to realize his maggoty nature. Without God's sovereign intervention implanting a new desire to be formed into the image of Christ, we would careen into hell (evidently being vessels of wrath, bastards who are not given the gift of submission to God's reproof and discipline). God alone is responsible for every phase of salvation, as the 'choices' we make toward salvation were not only enabled, but ordained by him. Fear before him!

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Notice... read closely. This is another PREDESTINATION VERSE. It is saying "All of those who received Christ, did so because God gave them the power to receive him." After all, only the Sons of God can receive (agree with) Christ and (I might add) afterward speak the same words he did (homologeo - 'confess', as in 'confess his name/onoma/authority, i.e. tell men about his absolute sovereignty.))

Salvation DOES NOT (and cannot) depend on man's 'free-will' ('sin-will'), but on God alone, who is the only force that can rouse a man from the dead that he may see the reproach of his sins, giving him the tendency to walk in perpetual repentance. A dead man cannot bring himself to life. Only God can do this. Asking a dead man to 'accept Christ' is like walking up to a casket, holding out a dollar bill and saying 'You can have this money if you come back to life and take it from my hand'.

Also, 'whosoever' does not mean 'who ever wants to'. I do not intent to offend, but that is a very appalaichan way of reading scripture. 'Whosoever' specifies a particular group of 'whos', those who believe, and only God can grant the ability to believe.

"Whichsoever pigs grow wings can fly" does not mean "The pigs that choose to grow wings can fly". Rather, is simply states that the specific pigs who grew wings can fly. The factor of the pigs' 'will' is null, not even mentioned.

Now with this in mind, review these:
"Whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13). "Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (John 11:26). "Whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43). "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God" (I John 4:15).

Also, Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

In other words, the water of life flows without restraint for those who desire to drink of it. However, according to the fullness of scripture, there is a catch. Firstly, only those who are sheep, given by the Father to Christ before time, will answer the call of "Come". Only those who have faith, which is the gift of God, will desire and thirst for the water of life (blunt truth). So it's clear that 'drinking the water of life' is not contingent on 'free-will' either. God's sovereignty reigns.

Brother what can you do with the WORD besides say AMEN