Baptism from God's Perspective

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by U376977

But I still do not understand how a people who claim to have THE ONLY WAY OF SALVATION have so many who continue to live unholy, ungodly, and defeated lives; why is not our salvation more effective on our people if it is the ONLY WAY?

Exactly the question that has been driving me batty lately. I have many homeschool (non-Pentecostal) friends who live lives devoted to God, their children love God, go on mission trips, keep themselves pure before God... and then I look around me at many of the teens in my church who can't wait to get out from under their parents' control so they can 'live it up'. I just don't understand. If our way is the only way, why don't we have better results??? I know our results aren't all bad, but our percentages are no better than any other denomination's.

We live such radical lives (ultra-cons especially), why don't we have radical results??

I'm not asking that in a snotty way, I seriously just don't understand.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Your passage in Matthew has nothing to do with baptism, but your relationship with others

Atonement has nothing to do with the New Testament. In fact the word is only used like one time in the New Testament and is a poor translation of the original word.

It has everything to do with it. It is the principle in which a person can come to God. If you can't understand the depth of the passage then that is a serious issue. Also it doesn't HAVE TO say baptism. It does refer though to the alter which points to "SACRIFICE" and how reconciling/repentance relates before you can come and offer your sacrifice/self. Thus the alter is a type of baptism in which is seen as the death/sacrifice. Which according to Romans 6 baptism is the place you are united with his death/sacrifice/blood. As you are united in his death/sacrifice and by declaring him Lord of your life in baptism. Repentance/reconciliation of heart has brought you to that point which acceptable unto him. In this you become baptized as then you are now united and thus dead with him to the past.

So atonement has nothing do with the NT? I guess Jesus means nothing and he was not the reality of that which was offered in the OT.

To say that Jesus blood "atoned" for the sins of man is to reduce the blood of Jesus to blood of bulls and goats. Jesus' blood remitted our sins not covered them.

Obviously you lack much depth to even argue these points as if I even said them. Seriously....... Also it is a pardon not an acquittal. Also if you don't forgive, your sins will come back on you!

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Exactly the question that has been driving me batty lately. I have many homeschool (non-Pentecostal) friends who live lives devoted to God, their children love God, go on mission trips, keep themselves pure before God... and then I look around me at many of the teens in my church who can't wait to get out from under their parents' control so they can 'live it up'. I just don't understand. If our way is the only way, why don't we have better results??? I know our results aren't all bad, but our percentages are no better than any other denomination's.

I'm not asking that in a snotty way, I seriously just don't understand.

Flesh is flesh

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Flesh is flesh

Personally I think this is an over simplistic answer that is entrenched with a "religious" overtone.

Raise up a child in the way they should go and when they are old they will not depart from it. Scripture is truth and while flesh can play into the equation which is why you will have a prodigal from time to time it should not be the norm.

The Word is clear that children are part of our inheritance therefore if we have high numbers that are wayward then don't excuse it as just flesh, look at the teaching...it's not working!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

If an individual called out to Jesus which is repenting asking for fogivness why do we need water the water does not physically remove sin Jesus does

I think that is a very important question KW. I certainly don’t speak for all Apostolics, but I can share with you what I believe.

First, man is hopelessly lost in sin without a Savior. However, there are several different elements to our salvation. I’ll list them as I understand them…

- Propitiation
- Justification
- Adoption
- Sanctification

Christ died to provide propitiation for our sins. He did that part. That opens the door for all mankind to come and be saved.

Those who repent of their sins are now “justified” by faith to come forward and be adopted into the family of God by taking upon them the name of Jesus. One cannot just have sin forgiven at will... one must be justified in God's sight to even come forward for the remission of sins.

When one is water baptized in the name of Jesus they take upon themselves His name, indeed even the likeness of Christ in his death and burial. At this point sin is remitted (forgiven) and the individual becomes a child of God.

As a new born babe must take its first breath or die, when one receives the Holy Ghost they are given new life and are empowered to live holy. Their sanctification begins here and continues throughout their entire lives.

Each element is vitally essential and accomplishes a different aspect of our salvation.

It’s like a marriage. A couple can know each other and love each other. But without the formal covenantal bond… they are just shacking up. A woman isn't a man's bride until she takes upon herself his name. One can be justified, and yet choose not to come forward for the remission of sins. Baptism is that covenantal step where one takes on Christ's name, becomes a child of God, becomes part of the bride. It’s the bond. Of course… the marriage can die without life being breathed into it. So the Spirit is also vitally essential to continue on as the Bride.

It's all necessary and it all plays a role. That's my understanding.

[U376977]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Exactly the question that has been driving me batty lately. I have many homeschool (non-Pentecostal) friends who live lives devoted to God, their children love God, go on mission trips, keep themselves pure before God... and then I look around me at many of the teens in my church who can't wait to get out from under their parents' control so they can 'live it up'. I just don't understand. If our way is the only way, why don't we have better results??? I know our results aren't all bad, but our percentages are no better than any other denomination's.

We live such radical lives (ultra-cons especially), why don't we have radical results??

I'm not asking that in a snotty way, I seriously just don't understand.

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Personally I think this is an over simplistic answer that is entrenched with a "religious" overtone.

Raise up a child in the way they should go and when they are old they will not depart from it. Scripture is truth and while flesh can play into the equation which is why you will have a prodigal from time to time it should not be the norm.

The Word is clear that children are part of our inheritance therefore if we have high numbers that are wayward then don't excuse it as just flesh, look at the teaching...it's not working!

I kindly asked Elder to repond with his thoughts as to why this is so, if he agrees that it is true, and he may still reply.

I admit it is a somewhat "loaded" question. You are right "it's not working." In our little assembly that I have attended for 7 years we have had about 30 kids grow up....not one is serving God out of High School. They are in drugs, fornication, homosexuality, and one kid tried to kill himself....etc. We cannot claim even one who is still serving God.

So OK, my theory... GENERALLY SPEAKING we are "water churches." We teach the 3 steps and thereby put the remmision of sins in the water. And we leave off the preaching of the blood. BUT the fact is that the blood and only the blood can bring salvation. The water is what one does as a response to salvation. In short, we preach the water and do not emphasize the blood of Christ. Whereas a "good baptist" hears the cross message almost every week. And here in NC (baptist) country there are a lot of good baptist kids that live holy (in regard to fleshly sins) godly lives.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by U376977

I kindly asked Elder to repond with his thoughts as to why this is so, if he agrees that it is true, and he may still reply.

I admit it is a somewhat "loaded" question. You are right "it's not working." In our little assembly that I have attended for 7 years we have had about 30 kids grow up....not one is serving God out of High School. They are in drugs, fornication, homosexuality, and one kid tried to kill himself....etc. We cannot claim even one who is still serving God.

So OK, my theory... GENERALLY SPEAKING we are "water churches." We teach the 3 steps and thereby put the remmision of sins in the water. And we leave off the preaching of the blood. BUT the fact is that the blood and only the blood can bring salvation. The water is what one does as a response to salvation. In short, we preach the water and do not emphasize the blood of Christ. Whereas a "good baptist" hears the cross message almost every week. And here in NC (baptist) country there are a lot of good baptist kids that live holy (in regard to fleshly sins) godly lives.

Amen. It's all by the blood. From start to finish.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by U376977

So OK, my theory... GENERALLY SPEAKING we are "water churches." We teach the 3 steps and thereby put the remmision of sins in the water. And we leave off the preaching of the blood. BUT the fact is that the blood and only the blood can bring salvation. The water is what one does as a response to salvation. In short, we preach the water and do not emphasize the blood of Christ. Whereas a "good baptist" hears the cross message almost every week. And here in NC (baptist) country there are a lot of good baptist kids that live holy (in regard to fleshly sins) godly lives.

I'm in my early 40s, raised Pentecostal, and I'm just now beginning to learn what the blood of Jesus was all about. Just now understanding that it's not my works that will save me.

[U376977]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I'm in my early 40s, raised Pentecostal, and I'm just now beginning to learn what the blood of Jesus was all about. Just now understanding that it's not my works that will save me.

Your honesty touches me. Thank you. Without faith in the blood for our salvation everything that we do in regard to "living holy", our works, is just religion and no better than any other faith.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Personally I think this is an over simplistic answer that is entrenched with a "religious" overtone.

Raise up a child in the way they should go and when they are old they will not depart from it. Scripture is truth and while flesh can play into the equation which is why you will have a prodigal from time to time it should not be the norm.

The Word is clear that children are part of our inheritance therefore if we have high numbers that are wayward then don't excuse it as just flesh, look at the teaching...it's not working!

No it's not. The basic playing field of her point are people who believe in the Bible and teach there children it's principles and how to love God. Flesh is flesh. I don't believe in total depravity so the view of man's ability to choose a good life based on philisophical teaching is still valuable though worthless without Christ. Thus flesh in the end is flesh but to be "perfect/complete" you must go beyond the principles into living by the Spirit unto life. That is the difference! We all can live "good" principled lives and all be viewed similar accross the religious field but it's not about do we live be principle which is important but by the Spirit. Thus the baptist and the pentecostal are on the same field flesh wise. Many pentecostals live by the flesh as do baptists and not led by God but by principled living. We might get a "move" of God but most just make it a short storm and harden the ground more in there everyday lives. Thus most are not totaly sold unto the Spirit and bankrupt to the flesh.