John 14:9 is Jesus - God the Father?

“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10, KJV).

If an educated Oneness Pentecostal should ever claim that the Son is not simply Jesus’ flesh or humanity as the least educated Oneness folk claim, but instead that the Father incarnated as Jesus Christ. Then a good question to ask them is this. How can the Son be the Father incarnate when John 14:10 states that the Son has God the Father indwelling him; ‘but the Father that dwelleth in me doeth the works.’ So if Jesus is God the Father incarnate in Oneness theology, then that would mean that God the Father indwells Jesus who really is God the Father which is self-contradictory.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You just contradicted yourself. You said that by putting himself grammatically before Father it made him EQUAL to God.

I don't know what happenned here, as obviously my whole point is that John 10:30 states that Jesus Christ the Son of God is fully Yahweh. I can only guess that as my time on the library PC was limited to half an hour yesterday that i was rushing, sorry, it was a mistake. Sometimes I copy the entire thread to my memory stick and then write more thoughtful posts at home, which i post the next day. You can tell if I'm rushing as I make plenty of spelling mistakes when I'm rushing to reply within the specificied period.

I'll try not to rush!!!!!

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Option number 2 works for us, can you prove option number 1?

In that case you MUST agree that the apostles are also Yahweh as they were also 'one' (hen) with both the Father and the Son, John 17:21-22 goes onto claim that all who follow christ are one with him, do following your own falwed logic Praxeas, you must also be Yahweh God yourself too if you're one with the Father and the Son! You need to try to UNDERSTAND the text Praxeas, Jesus is using an idiomatic jewish phrase at John 10:30, to be one in the neuter with somebody else meant to be in harmony and agreement with them. If Jesus had wishted to say that he was the Father, then he would have used the verb to be in the first peson singular; 'I AM the Father,' whcih he never used once anywhere in Scripture (John 14:9 adds the perposition 'in' (ev). Why even at Mark 12 when Christ repeated Deut 6:4; stating that God is one, he here used the masculine word for 'one' (heis) and not the neuter as at John 10:30, to signify an absolute single divine nature. Your trying to build a theology without understanding basic concepts such as grammar and jewish idiomatic termionology, no wonder your so angery all the time and take admin roles so that you can boot those pesky Trinitarians out of the room. the only people who'll you'll win to your Oneness beliefs are the gullible who don't know anything at all about grammar, idioms and historical context and so can't argue back against your claims!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

I can't show you any verse of scripture which states in this way; 'Putting I before somebody elses name implies equality with them.' However something in John 10:30 is an affirmation of the Son's deity, which is why they picked up stones later on to kill him. It can't be the use of the word 'one' in the neuter (hen) as the apostles are also 'One' (hen) with both the fathe and the Son which would make them Yahweh as well. So the ball is in your court, if The Son is Yahweh God according to John 10:30 where on earth in this verse do you see any such claim to deity, it's certainly there, and you need to find it if you believe it. In Jewish idiomatic thought to put your name before that of another person implied equality with them, so that's my take on why the Son is Yahweh at John 10:30, if you understand jewish idioms, you'll see the deity of the Son at John 10:30 just as clearly as i do.

Well then post something outside the bible that proves what you are saying here about grammar or jewish idioms. You know how Jewish idioms really work? When someone does not like what a verse says they, change the meaning and cry "Jewish idiom"

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10, KJV).

If an educated Oneness Pentecostal should ever claim that the Son is not simply Jesus’ flesh or humanity as the least educated Oneness folk claim, but instead that the Father incarnated as Jesus Christ. Then a good question to ask them is this. How can the Son be the Father incarnate when John 14:10 states that the Son has God the Father indwelling him; ‘but the Father that dwelleth in me doeth the works.’ So if Jesus is God the Father incarnate in Oneness theology, then that would mean that God the Father indwells Jesus who really is God the Father which is self-contradictory.

First of all we are claiming the Son is Yahweh incarnate, second of all, how does having the Father dwell IN the Son? Nobody would claim God the Father is the Son. NObody argues the Father is the Son. Saying the Son is the Father incarnate is not the same as saying the Father is the Son. How does Father dwelling IN the Son mean the Son can't be the Father incarnate?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

I don't know what happenned here, as obviously my whole point is that John 10:30 states that Jesus Christ the Son of God is fully Yahweh. I can only guess that as my time on the library PC was limited to half an hour yesterday that i was rushing, sorry, it was a mistake. Sometimes I copy the entire thread to my memory stick and then write more thoughtful posts at home, which i post the next day. You can tell if I'm rushing as I make plenty of spelling mistakes when I'm rushing to reply within the specificied period.

I'll try not to rush!!!!!

So it is your claim that by putting himself before the Father he was claiming to be equal to the Father?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

In that case you MUST agree that the apostles are also Yahweh as they were also 'one' (hen) with both the Father and the Son, John 17:21-22 goes onto claim that all who follow christ are one with him, do following your own falwed logic Praxeas, you must also be Yahweh God yourself too if you're one with the Father and the Son! You need to try to UNDERSTAND the text Praxeas, Jesus is using an idiomatic jewish phrase at John 10:30, to be one in the neuter with somebody else meant to be in harmony and agreement with them.

Please show me where Jesus said "I and my Apostles are One"

Please prove this is an idiom

Why would these Aramaic speaking jews rely on greek?

Hen is used in the bible in other places to simply mean 1 in number. Hen, after all, is the greek neuter word for one.

If Jesus had wishted to say that he was the Father, then he would have used the verb to be in the first peson singular; 'I AM the Father,' whcih he never used once anywhere in Scripture (John 14:9 adds the perposition 'in' (ev).

Jesus also never said "I AM the God"...did he ever say "I AM Eternal" or "I Am God the Son"? See how that argument falls flat on it's face? Jesus spoke enigmatically

Why even at Mark 12 when Christ repeated Deut 6:4; stating that God is one, he here used the masculine word for 'one' (heis) and not the neuter as at John 10:30, to signify an absolute single divine nature.

haha. Funny. Trinitarians point to the Shema in the OT to say God meant Tripersonal Deity because Echad is a compound unity and here you have Jesus using heis....

That would read according to you, here o Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is One in number. Works for us!

Unfortunately though the greek word Heis has also been used to express a unity.

Your trying to build a theology without understanding basic concepts such as grammar and jewish idiomatic termionology, no wonder your so angery all the time and take admin roles so that you can boot those pesky Trinitarians out of the room.

Well you just got yourself booted. Now, if this was simply a matter of being angry at pesky trinitarians, I would have booted you and other Trinitarians here a LONG time ago or just not even allow you to register. YOu were warned about fighting with the admins and disrespecting them like that after you did it before. You also received the PM. This ban will be temporary though because I would like to think you can learn to behave yourself and comply with the rules and what the Admins ask of you...you know, be a civil human being.

BTW I understand grammar a lot better than you do...if I did not understand the idiom, which I understand they DO use idioms, you could have posted something to PROVE this was a Jewish idiom. You can't just make up idioms on the fly in order to support your case

the only people who'll you'll win to your Oneness beliefs are the gullible who don't know anything at all about grammar, idioms and historical context and so can't argue back against your claims!

There are a lot of gullible OPs I am sure you are hunting for to, who will take your word for it without you actually proving your case

Originally Posted by Praxeas

First of all we are claiming the Son is Yahweh incarnate, second of all, how does having the Father dwell IN the Son? Nobody would claim God the Father is the Son. NObody argues the Father is the Son. Saying the Son is the Father incarnate is not the same as saying the Father is the Son. How does Father dwelling IN the Son mean the Son can't be the Father incarnate?

Because I and every other Christian also have have the Father dwelling in us too, but that doesn't make us God. As for yoru first comment, errrr, no you don't claim that the Son IS Yahweh, you rather claim that the Son is a man in whom Yahweh's spirit indwells. This is why you deny that the Son is eternal, you deny that the Son is creator, you deny that the Son is omnipotent. You do call the Son Yahweh, just as Mormons, JWs and Unitarians seemingly apply some vague sort of divine claim to the Son, but then you claim that it's the Almighty God IN Christ, i.e. the Father in the Son who is the possessor of every divine attribute.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

Because I and every other Christian also have have the Father dwelling in us too, but that doesn't make us God.

I didn't say having the father in him makes him God. Stop twisting what we say or your next vacation will be longer

As for yoru first comment, errrr, no you don't claim that the Son IS Yahweh, you rather claim that the Son is a man in whom Yahweh's spirit indwells.

Im serious Robert, stop the lies. I have said verbatim the Son IS God. The Son is NOT just a man in whom the Spirit indwells. I have said verbatim the Son is God Himself. HIMSELF...that means PERSON, incarnate. The Son is the Person of God and the Divine and Human nature in union IN the Son.

You have been dishonest like this for years and you have never changed. It will NOT continue here. If you can find another OP that genuinely believes what you just said, fine. But STOP saying that is what I believe when I have told you to the contrary.

How would you feel if we kept saying you believe in three Gods and every time you said "no I believe in one God" we said "no, you believe in three"?

This is why you deny that the Son is eternal, you deny that the Son is creator, you deny that the Son is omnipotent. You do call the Son Yahweh, just as Mormons, JWs and Unitarians seemingly apply some vague sort of divine claim to the Son, but then you claim that it's the Almighty God IN Christ, i.e. the Father in the Son who is the possessor of every divine attribute.

Robert, all you are doing is repeating yourself over and over. Im going to ban you again. This is what you did on the other forum. You totally ignore or just can't understand what I and MfBlume have said and despite what we post all you ever do is just repeat the same garbage over and over.

You need to stop telling us we don't believe what we say we believe and start dealing with what we believe AS we say it. Stop rewording and reinterpreting. You can do that on your board or a Trinitarian board designed to attack Oneness and get away with it, but not here

Originally Posted by Praxeas

First of all we are claiming the Son is Yahweh incarnate, second of all, how does having the Father dwell IN the Son? Nobody would claim God the Father is the Son. NObody argues the Father is the Son. Saying the Son is the Father incarnate is not the same as saying the Father is the Son. How does Father dwelling IN the Son mean the Son can't be the Father incarnate?

Becasue the Father is another person to the Son, look I have the father indwelling me (John 14:23) but becasue I am a different person to the father, that makes the Father a different person to me - I'n NOT God the Father. So likewise the Father indwelling the Son and the Son indwelling the Father, does not make the Son the Father.