Jesus forsaken?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

I believe in One God. I do not believe in separate persons or separate Gods. I also do not believe that Jesus was/is imperfect. Nor do I believe that He suffered schizophrenia or dissociative identity disorder.

You do believe Jesus’ Mount Olivet Discourse (Mat 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) speaks of the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem, correct? You also believe that these chapters include Jesus explaining to His disciples that their generation would see all of these prophecies fulfilled, right? If so, how then are we to believe that within Mark’s account Jesus all of a sudden stops and says that He really does not know when this is to take place? If He did not know, how could He know it was to happen within their generation (Mat 24:34, Mat 23:36; Mark 13:30; Luke 11:50, Luke 21:32; Acts 2:40)? How would He know that some standing there would live to see it happen (Mat 16:28; Mark 9:1; Luke 9:27)? How can Jesus have understanding of all that was to happen, and even that it was to happen within their generation, and then claim that He did not know when it was to take place?

I believe the key to understand Mark 13:32 is found in another mentioning of Jesus' statement.

Mat 24:36
(36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

This account does not have Jesus not knowing, but instead says it is man. Such thought agrees with these accounts: Mat 24:42, Mat 25:13; Mark 13:33, Mark 13:35; Acts 1:7.

All Scripture was inspired by the same author – God Almighty! Therefore, since Jesus is God, and since He knew all about the Olivet Discourse, how did He not know about the timeframe in which it was to occur? To me, to believe Jesus did not know the day or the hour is inconsistent with Him being the omniscient God.

Your argument could also be used to give credence to the claim that there is a gap in the Olivet Discourse. Of course nowhere in Mat 24, Mark 13, or Luke 21 does such a passage exist. However, your line of reasoning does leave open the idea that Jesus may have also missed the timeframe for the Dispensationalist’s gap. After all, if He did not know about the day or the hour, who’s to say if He knew about this gap? Hey, one error always leads to another….

The Bible clearly has Jesus knowing all things. Therefore I believe Mark 13:32 is not saying that Jesus did not know the time or the hour for this fulfillment, but instead that man (God’s son/child) did not know.

Jesus' best!

Great post, Brother Burk.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Since we died spiritually, I think yes.

Where does the bible say he had to spiritually die?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But I think there must have been a spiritual death for the Son of God as I described, at least, involved, because we were in spiritually death and were also doomed to physical death. Christ dealt with both deaths, I believe. To die as us He must have experienced spiritual death since we did, no?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

To spiritually die is to be separated from the life of God. Does the bible say he had to die spiritually for us?

Originally Posted by mfblume

Since we died spiritually, I think yes.

What? Jesus died spiritually? Where does the Bible say this?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But I think there must have been a spiritual death for the Son of God as I described, at least, involved, because we were in spiritually death and were also doomed to physical death.

Brother Blume I think you have taken this thought just a tad bit too far.
Where can you prove the above? I don't think you had your ducks in a row when you came up with the above?

Originally Posted by mfblume

Christ dealt with both deaths, I believe.

Would you mind giving us a little Bible study to show how you can even believe such a thought?

Originally Posted by mfblume

To die as us He must have experienced spiritual death since we did, no?

Ah...NO.

In Jesus Name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But I think there must have been a spiritual death for the Son of God as I described, at least, involved, because we were in spiritually death and were also doomed to physical death. Christ dealt with BOTH deaths, I believe. To die as us He MUST HAVE experienced spiritual death since we did, no?

Brother Blume can you please adress the above with chapter and verse.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

"Bump" for Michael Blume. Did Jesus die a SPIRITUAL DEATH?

[mfblume]

Praxeas and tkburk,

Originally Posted by TK Burk

What? Jesus died spiritually? Where does the Bible say this?

I believe sin causes spiritual death. And to say He became sin for us, is to say he experienced the separation from God that sin causes.

Do you not believe sin separates us from our God?

Isaiah 59:2 KJV But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Do you not believe he took our sins and experienced this separation from God?

Do you not believe separation from God is spiritual death?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Praxeas and tkburk,

I believe sin causes spiritual death. And to say He became sin for us, is to say he experienced the separation from God that sin causes.

Do you not believe sin separates us from our God?

Isaiah 59:2 KJV But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Do you not believe he took our sins and experienced this separation from God?

Do you not believe separation from God is spiritual death?

So was Jesus separate from God? I cannot see what you mean here unless you're saying Jesus is not God, or at least that He is not the only God. Please, explain your belief with more Scripture than just Isa 59:2.

Thanks!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

So was Jesus separate from God? I cannot see what you mean here unless you're saying Jesus is not God, or at least that He is not the only God. Please, explain your belief with more Scripture than just Isa 59:2.

Thanks!

I would not ask you if you believed Jesus was God or not, since I know you believe He is. I know you to be a oneness believer. I only wonder why you say this about me, knowing I am oneness.


Jesus is of course God.

But he was also MAN. And incarnation was required for Him to die for us in vicarious atonement. The human element was separated from God due to sin, since He took our sins upon Himself. He felt the separation from God that we feel due to sin. He fel;t our spiritual death, in other words.

He could not die as God any more than He could suffer separation from God due to sin as God.

Hebrews 2:14 MKJV Since then the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise partook of the same; that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death (that is, the Devil),

In order to die as us he had to take our sins upon Himself.

1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Death comes by sin. And Christ died for OUR sins.

Our sins separate us from God. Do you not believe the humanity of Christ was separated from God due to sin?

Isaiah 53:3-12 KJV He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (4) Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (5) But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. (8) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. (9) And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. (10) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. (12) Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Do you not believe the humanity of Christ experienced this due to taking OUR SINS upon Himself?:

Isaiah 59:2 KJV But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

So please answer my questions again:

Do you not believe he took our sins and experienced this separation from God?

Do you not believe separation from God is spiritual death? Asking you these questions leads to an answer for you.

[Praxeas]

To say "he became sin for us" is to say He became a sin OFFERING for us. You can't become sin anymore than you can become "like"...you can like someone, but you don't become like. Sin is not something one can become

2Co 5:21 God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God.

If Christ is the lamb...after the symbol of the lamb in the OT...then our sins were PUT ON HIM. He was a sin offering for us.

here is no NT verse as far as I know that says he had to die spiritually for us. In fact Jesus emphatically tells us reconcilliation was about his physical death

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat, this is My body.
Mat 26:27 And He took the cup and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink all of it.
Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus says to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, you do not have life in yourselves.
Joh 6:54 Whoever partakes of My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He who partakes of My flesh and drinks My blood dwells in Me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father has sent Me, and I live through the Father, so he who partakes of Me, even he shall live by Me.
Joh 6:58 This is the Bread which came down from Heaven, not as your fathers ate the manna, and died; he who partakes of this Bread shall live forever.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

There are dozens and dozens but not one that mentions him spiritually dying