Pastoral Authority....where did it come from? - Page 6

MomOfADramaQn · #51 01-27-2009, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Of course.

So, if its not a salvational issue, then it doesn't come from the "pits of hell."

If you are acting in a way that is not pleasing to God - then you are acting in a way that is pleasing to Satan and last time I checked he was from the pits of hell. If you mistreat your children/spouse and you do not seek forgiveness it is a behavior that I don't think God is pleased with - will it send you to hell - guess that is for God to decide not us.

MissBrattified · #52 01-27-2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Miss B,

I agree that they are either taught that or they are easily infuenced by others. One thing I want to add though is that the hearts of men are evil and sometimes they are so insecure, or overly confident that their way is the best way. Many times they think they are the voice of God when in fact they can be easily used by the devil without even realizing it when they rely on themselves instead of God.

I do not believe that we will be given brownie points for obeying a man who is not following Godly principles in his own life or trying to manipulate and control people in his church that are not his business to control. Even Paul told the people in the churches he visited with to "follow me as I follow Christ." There is a great difference from following a pastor's scriptural teaching and allowing him to influence you in things that are not his responsibility.

I am at work so I don't have time to elaborate.

Blessings, Rhonda

1. If I allow my pastor (or anyone else) to influence me in areas that are not his responsibility, it is because I respect him enough to WANT his input. That is my decision, and surely you have people like that in your life?

2. I don't believe we will be given "brownie points" for obeying our pastors, so much as we have our own instructions from God that need to be followed, including submission to authority, so in essence, I just need to keep my own nose clean, and my own conscience clear. If I have a leader over me who shouldn't be there, then it is easy enough to remove myself from his/her authority. I don't believe in staying in place and just bucking against leadership.

MissBrattified · #53 01-27-2009, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MomOfADramaQn

If you are acting in a way that is not pleasing to God - then you are acting in a way that is pleasing to Satan and last time I checked he was from the pits of hell. If you mistreat your children/spouse and you do not seek forgiveness it is a behavior that I don't think God is pleased with - will it send you to hell - guess that is for God to decide not us.

*sigh*

I agree, MOADQ!!!!!!

If I sin against my husband or children with angry or hurtful words, then I should repent to them and to God for my actions.

However, we're talking about something that is a little more subtle and subjective. Sometimes the "abuse" is nothing more than a personality conflict, and one person not liking how another person handles things. Other times it's actual abuse.

If it is actual abuse, then that person should take their hurt to the pastor to attempt to resolve it. However, if the pastor doesn't see their behavior as damaging, you can't assume he is acting with evil motives. Can you? He may be ignorant, but not evil. For that matter, there are a lot of ignorant parents out there that I would personally like to knock some sense into, but the truth is, they're too stupid to parent any differently.

You can't fix stupid. Maybe God can.

I'm just saying that sometimes abuse is obvious, but sometimes it's subjective, and motives can't always be maligned quite so easily.

OnTheFritz · #54 01-27-2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

*sigh*

I agree, MOADQ!!!!!!

If I sin against my husband or children with angry or hurtful words, then I should repent to them and to God for my actions.

However, we're talking about something that is a little more subtle and subjective. Sometimes the "abuse" is nothing more than a personality conflict, and one person not liking how another person handles things. Other times it's actual abuse.

If it is actual abuse, then that person should take their hurt to the pastor to attempt to resolve it. However, if the pastor doesn't see their behavior as damaging, you can't assume he is acting with evil motives. Can you? He may be ignorant, but not evil. For that matter, there are a lot of ignorant parents out there that I would personally like to knock some sense into, but the truth is, they're too stupid to parent any differently.

You can't fix stupid. Maybe God can.

I'm just saying that sometimes abuse is obvious, but sometimes it's subjective, and motives can't always be maligned quite so easily.

Good post.

deltaguitar · #55 01-27-2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

*sigh*

I agree, MOADQ!!!!!!

If I sin against my husband or children with angry or hurtful words, then I should repent to them and to God for my actions.

However, we're talking about something that is a little more subtle and subjective. Sometimes the "abuse" is nothing more than a personality conflict, and one person not liking how another person handles things. Other times it's actual abuse.

If it is actual abuse, then that person should take their hurt to the pastor to attempt to resolve it. However, if the pastor doesn't see their behavior as damaging, you can't assume he is acting with evil motives. Can you? He may be ignorant, but not evil. For that matter, there are a lot of ignorant parents out there that I would personally like to knock some sense into, but the truth is, they're too stupid to parent any differently.

You can't fix stupid. Maybe God can.

I'm just saying that sometimes abuse is obvious, but sometimes it's subjective, and motives can't always be maligned quite so easily.

I agree that you can't fix stupid. However, you will find that many of these controlling pastors are some very smart guys and know exactly what they are doing.

Many of these men don't have the spirit of Christ but look, talk, and act very religious. These men have replaced Jesus with a system and though it is with good intentions they are still wrong.

Almost always they have mentors that are of the same spirit and I have seen good young ministers almost destroyed by pastors who not only control their saints but seek other ministers to control as well. These men are very active and will seek out other ministers that they think they can manipulate. They will give them praise and a position within their group. It is very hard for some young pastors to resist.

I have heard statements like, "I won't go to Hell for any of you" or "if you aren't ready to get in line then get out". Usually dealing with saints that don't really line up very well with the local standards.

It is really sad and many folks are damaged beyond repair and end up leaving God altogether without ever being taught the truth of the gospel. The saints will know all about Acts 2:38, shouting, and no cut hair but have absolutely no clue about God's redemption plan.

MomOfADramaQn · #56 01-27-2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

I agree that you can't fix stupid. However, you will find that many of these controlling pastors are some very smart guys and know exactly what they are doing.

Many of these men don't have the spirit of Christ but look, talk, and act very religious. These men have replaced Jesus with a system and though it is with good intentions they are still wrong.

Almost always they have mentors that are of the same spirit and I have seen good young ministers almost destroyed by pastors who not only control their saints but seek other ministers to control as well. These men are very active and will seek out other ministers that they think they can manipulate. They will give them praise and a position within their group. It is very hard for some young pastors to resist.

I have heard statements like, "I won't go to Hell for any of you" or "if you aren't ready to get in line then get out". Usually dealing with saints that don't really line up very well with the local standards.

It is really sad and many folks are damaged beyond repair and end up leaving God altogether without ever being taught the truth of the gospel. The saints will know all about Acts 2:38, shouting, and no cut hair but have absolutely no clue about God's redemption plan.

AMEN!!

MissBrattified · #57 01-27-2009, 03:53 PM

I've been at the victim end of pastoral abuse. However, I am not going to allow the actions of one man (and his wife), ignorant or otherwise, to mess with my views from a biblical perspective.

Authority, in its purest form, is definitely sanctioned by God. Obviously the abuse of that authority is not!

MomOfADramaQn · #58 01-27-2009, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I've been at the victim end of pastoral abuse. However, I am not going to allow the actions of one man (and his wife), ignorant or otherwise, to mess with my views from a biblical perspective.

Authority, in its purest form, is definitely sanctioned by God. Obviously the abuse of that authority is not!

I think we are on the same page

OnTheFritz · #59 01-27-2009, 04:05 PM

This may offend some, but I hope not. I believe that sometimes people pursue careers that allow their already existing behaviors to flourish. I think that the ministry is an appealing profession for egomaniacs. It allows those with major control issues to exercise control. So, I don't think it should be a surprise to anyone that certain pastors have major control issues. They aren't controlling because they're pastors - they're pastors so they can be controlling!

I won't even say that this is the majority of pastors. I have a huge amount of respect more my pastor and many others. It's a difficult job - made all the more difficult by the existence of people that fit these stereotypes.

rgcraig · #60 01-27-2009, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheFritz

This may offend some, but I hope not. I believe that sometimes people pursue careers that allow their already existing behaviors to flourish. I think that the ministry is an appealing profession for egomaniacs. It allows those with major control issues to exercise control. So, I don't think it should be a surprise to anyone that certain pastors have major control issues. They aren't controlling because they're pastors - they're pastors so they can be controlling!

I won't even say that this is the majority of pastors. I have a huge amount of respect more my pastor and many others. It's a difficult job - made all the more difficult by the existence of people that fit these stereotypes.

Very good point!