Can you name any other men which you believe do not have any sin in their lives at least to your knowledge? (I mean you don't have to name them by name, but you know what I am saying...)
I will do better than that. I will give you Bible examples of people who were walking without sin.
10: Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: 1 Thess. 2:10
Paul speaking of himself Silas and Timothy.
12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Phil. 2:12
The saints in Philippi always obeyed.
14: I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. 1 John 2:14
John said the young men had overcome the wicked one.
I would say thats more than 10 witnesses from scripture of people overcoming sin.
If you have sin in your life then I would rather address the hypocrisy in your demands that others do what you cannot.
EDIT: I'll elaborate. There are very few if any people that hold to the view of sin which you do that believe that they won't sin as a Christian. Now, since they apparently have a much different understanding of the bible than you, I mean they believe there is no way that they will not flub up, then if it is shown that not even you or those that believe as you can not sin, then the idea that Christians ought to be sinless should be abandoned. So I say find me 10 examples of men with no sin after coming to Christ and that will show what you are saying is possible. Then after you have shown it is possible to live as you think those verses demand, then we can talk about whether that's actually what those verses mean or not.
Well, technically, they could mean what he says they mean, and Heaven will be very sparsely populated.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
If you have sin in your life then I would rather address the hypocrisy in your demands that others do what you cannot.
EDIT: I'll elaborate. There are very few if any people that hold to the view of sin which you do that believe that they won't sin as a Christian. Now, since they apparently have a much different understanding of the bible than you, I mean they believe there is no way that they will not flub up, then if it is shown that not even you or those that believe as you can not sin, then the idea that Christians ought to be sinless should be abandoned. So I say find me 10 examples of men with no sin after coming to Christ and that will show what you are saying is possible. Then after you have shown it is possible to live as you think those verses demand, then we can talk about whether that's actually what those verses mean or not.
Hypocrisy in MY DEMANDS?
Are you kidding? Am I the one who said this?
23: Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25: When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27: But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. Luke 13:23-27
Ask yourself this question. Who said these words? Are those my words? No. I am just pointing out the words that Jesus spoke.
Feel free to elaborate on what HE SAID.
Christians should give up the idea of being sinless? Where did Jesus or an Apostles say that?
Jesus is the one who said this:
43: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45: And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47: And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:43-48
No his spirit is not telling anyone to abandon the idea of overcoming sin. He would rather you maim yourself than commit a sin.
Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 02-06-2010 at 02:11 PM.
The Church and the world walked far apart
On the changing shores of time:
The world was singing a giddy song,
And the Church a hymn sublime.
“Come, give me your hand”, cried the merry world,
“And walk with me this way.”
But the good Church hid her snowy hand,
And solemnly answered “Nay!”
“Nay, walk with me but a little space”,
Said the world with a kindly air,
“The road I walk is a pleasant road,
And the sun shines always there.
“My path, you see, is a broad, fair path,
And my gate is high and wide;
“There is room enough for you and for me
To travel side by side”,
Half-shyly the Church approached the world
And gave him her hand of snow;
The old world grasped it and walked along,
Saying in accents low:
“Your dress is too simple to suit my taste;
I will give you pearls to wear;
“Rich velvet and silk for your graceful form
And diamonds to deck your hair.”
The church looked down on her plain, white robes
And then at the dazzling world,
And blushed as she saw his handsome lip
With a smile contemptuous curled.
“I will change my dress for a costlier one”,
Said the Church with a smile of grace;
Then her pure white garments drifted away,
And the world gave her in place
Beautiful satins and shining silks,
And roses, and gems and pearls;
And over her forehead her bright hair fell,
Crisped in a thousand curls.
“Your house is too plain”, said the proud old world,
“I’ll build you one like mine;
Carpets of Brussels and curtains of lace,
And furniture ever so fine.
And he bought her a costly and beautiful home;
Splendid it was to behold;
Her sons and her beautiful daughters dwelt there,
Gleaming in purple and gold.
And fairs and shows in the halls were held,
And the world and his children were there;
And laughter and music and feasts were heard
In the place that was meant for prayer.
The Angel of Mercy flew over the Church,
And whispered, “I know thy sin.”
The Church looked back with a sigh
And longed to gather her children in.
“Your preachers are all too old and plain”,
Said the gay old world with a sneer.
“They frighten my children with dreadful tales
Which I like not for them to hear.
“They talk of brimstone and fire and pain,
And the horrors of endless night;
“They talk of a place that should never at all
Be mentioned in ears polite.
“I shall send you some of the better stamp,
Brilliant and gay and fast,
“Who will tell them that people may live as they list,
And go to heaven at last.”
“The sons of the world and the sons of the church walked closely,
Hand and heart,
And only the Master Who knoweth all
Could tell the two apart.
Then the church sat down at her ease and said,
“I am rich and in goods increased;
“I have need of nothing, have nought to do
But to laugh and dance and feast.”
The sly world heard her and laughed in his sleeve,
And mockingly said aside,
“The church is fallen, the beautiful church,
And her shame is her boast and pride.”
Living without sin is possible. Please note, it has nothing to do with keeping man made "standards". But rather sin is defined by the Law of God:
The Ten Commandments
1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make idols or bow down to them, nor serve them.
3. You shall not use the name of the Lord your God disrespectfully.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not lie about your neighbor.
10. You shall not lust for your neighbor's house, or his wife, or any
thing that is your neighbor's.
If you keep these you are living above sin.
Biblical standards (such as modesty) fall under the category of, Christian Disciplines.
Living without sin is possible. Please note, it has nothing to do with keeping man made "standards". But rather sin is defined by the Law of God:
The Ten Commandments
1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make idols or bow down to them, nor serve them.
3. You shall not use the name of the Lord your God disrespectfully.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not lie about your neighbor.
10. You shall not lust for your neighbor's house, or his wife, or any
thing that is your neighbor's.
If you keep these you are living above sin.
Biblical standards (such as modesty) fall under the category of, Christian Disciplines.
The Church and the world walked far apart
On the changing shores of time:
The world was singing a giddy song,
And the Church a hymn sublime.
“Come, give me your hand”, cried the merry world,
“And walk with me this way.”
But the good Church hid her snowy hand,
And solemnly answered “Nay!”
“Nay, walk with me but a little space”,
Said the world with a kindly air,
“The road I walk is a pleasant road,
And the sun shines always there.
“My path, you see, is a broad, fair path,
And my gate is high and wide;
“There is room enough for you and for me
To travel side by side”,
Half-shyly the Church approached the world
And gave him her hand of snow;
The old world grasped it and walked along,
Saying in accents low:
“Your dress is too simple to suit my taste;
I will give you pearls to wear;
“Rich velvet and silk for your graceful form
And diamonds to deck your hair.”
The church looked down on her plain, white robes
And then at the dazzling world,
And blushed as she saw his handsome lip
With a smile contemptuous curled.
“I will change my dress for a costlier one”,
Said the Church with a smile of grace;
Then her pure white garments drifted away,
And the world gave her in place
Beautiful satins and shining silks,
And roses, and gems and pearls;
And over her forehead her bright hair fell,
Crisped in a thousand curls.
“Your house is too plain”, said the proud old world,
“I’ll build you one like mine;
Carpets of Brussels and curtains of lace,
And furniture ever so fine.
And he bought her a costly and beautiful home;
Splendid it was to behold;
Her sons and her beautiful daughters dwelt there,
Gleaming in purple and gold.
And fairs and shows in the halls were held,
And the world and his children were there;
And laughter and music and feasts were heard
In the place that was meant for prayer.
The Angel of Mercy flew over the Church,
And whispered, “I know thy sin.”
The Church looked back with a sigh
And longed to gather her children in.
“Your preachers are all too old and plain”,
Said the gay old world with a sneer.
“They frighten my children with dreadful tales
Which I like not for them to hear.
“They talk of brimstone and fire and pain,
And the horrors of endless night;
“They talk of a place that should never at all
Be mentioned in ears polite.
“I shall send you some of the better stamp,
Brilliant and gay and fast,
“Who will tell them that people may live as they list,
And go to heaven at last.”
“The sons of the world and the sons of the church walked closely,
Hand and heart,
And only the Master Who knoweth all
Could tell the two apart.
Then the church sat down at her ease and said,
“I am rich and in goods increased;
“I have need of nothing, have nought to do
But to laugh and dance and feast.”
The sly world heard her and laughed in his sleeve,
And mockingly said aside,
“The church is fallen, the beautiful church,
And her shame is her boast and pride.”
Very stirring.......sobering. Thank you for sharing.
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