Tithing…Is it a command?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Esphes45

I have a feeling you are being funny.
Are you serious?

I hope you are serious because I believe that there should be one unified church and we will have to compromise to get there. (God help us)

With that being said I have no problem with the above BUT if that is the policy, tithes should be preached that way also - If you disagree with paying tithes basically don't pay tithes. According to your faith let it be so unto you.

I think we all agree on giving

Why should we have to compromise with a false doctrine? Would Paul have compromised with false teachers(heretics)?

We must get back to the ORIGINAL teachings of the Apostles to get our giving practices. This idea you are considering is saying tithing teaching is to be tolerated by non tithers and we are to shut up about it. It is completely unreasonable.(just read the last part and consider the implications, because it still causes the non tither to "validate" the tithe teacher by being "tolerant" of it being taught).

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Esphes45

I have a feeling you are being funny.
Are you serious?

I hope you are serious because I believe that there should be one unified church and we will have to compromise to get there. (God help us)

With that being said I have no problem with the above BUT if that is the policy, tithes should be preached that way also - If you disagree with paying tithes basically don't pay tithes. According to your faith let it be so unto you.

I think we all agree on giving

I am trying to show love and acceptance with those who do not believe in tithing. I do not want anyone to be run out of the church because they do not believe tithing is biblical.

I am trying to find some kind of compromise that would be acceptable of both tithing and freewill giving for both sides use the Bible for their arguments.

I love my brethren even those who I believe to be in error, I want to find a statement that would be acceptable to them without denying what I believe.

Unlike others I do no pray or wish for the death of any brother because he disagrees with how I see the scriptures, instead I pray that God will shower plenty of blessings and long life upon any such brother.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

OK Rudy and all your fellow free will offerings.

This comes from a new apostolic Church that will be established January 1, 2015

I only copied the first 2 paragraphs and the part about finance; the document discusses some other doctrines.
This is a church that officially teaches tithing but allows freedom to those who believe in freewill giving.

would the following statement be a satisfactory compromise?

TOLERATION POLICY
The Christian Apostolic Church Universal (CACU) has a toleration policy, which is a unique feature of our church. While we believe the following official stance on certain doctrines are biblically correct, nevertheless for the sake of brotherly love and kindness to those who differ biblically in such matters, we have therefore created this toleration policy.

Although The Christian Apostolic Church Universal (CACU) does not demand or require that its members or ministers adhere to the official doctrinal stances, we do require that any dissenting person be polite, respectful and avoid creating disunity in the church.

Finance.
The official stance of The Christian Apostolic Church Universal (CACU) is that the finances of the church should be generated thru tithes and offerings. Any member or minister of the CACU who disagrees with this official stance may disagree peacefully under our toleration policy.

The statement it seems at least may open the door to debate. At present this is something the major orgs will not do.

[good samaritan]

Just so some of you know that tithing is taught from the Bible not the koran. You say it was only for the OT, point taken. Do you not use anything from the OT or do you intentionally violate everything that is OT. I remember when I was a boy being taught to not work on Sunday.(unless you had an ox in the ditch). I don't believe that teaching is for the NT church, but I believe this country was a much better place when we held them values. Many of those OT principles work very well. I don't think we should force anything on people the apostles didn't teach, but some here act like tithing didn't even come from the Bible.

By some of the tones you are setting it makes you sound hateful. Although you may disagree with someone on their stances concerning tithing last I heard we are free to make choices. No one is being made to tithe or not to tithe. If you walk out on God because you feel 10% is too steep, it doesn't matter if the teaching is correct or not because you have other problems. If you disagree with the tithe don't do it, but continue to walk with God and follow all the other apostolic teachings that is clearly defined.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Just so some of you know that tithing is taught from the Bible not the koran. You say it was only for the OT, point taken. Do you not use anything from the OT or do you intentionally violate everything that is OT. I remember when I was a boy being taught to not work on Sunday.(unless you had an ox in the ditch). I don't believe that teaching is for the NT church, but I believe this country was a much better place when we held them values. Many of those OT principles work very well. I don't think we should force anything on people the apostles didn't teach, but some here act like tithing didn't even come from the Bible.

By some of the tones you are setting it makes you sound hateful. Although you may disagree with someone on their stances concerning tithing last I heard we are free to make choices. No one is being made to tithe or not to tithe. If you walk out on God because you feel 10% is too steep, it doesn't matter if the teaching is correct or not because you have other problems. If you disagree with the tithe don't do it, but continue to walk with God and follow all the other apostolic teachings that is clearly defined.

Brother, how do you think tithing even got started in Christianity? It started by a bunch of dark age heretics trying to make a "principle" of tithing, using the O.T. as the basic pattern. It was only adopted in "principle" in the 6th century, but became a strict commandment of men by the 8th century.

This suggestion is just history repeating itself.


BTW...killing homosexuals is a O.T. command, do you practice that in "principle".


Looks to me that you guys would only like to see tithing established in "principle" here.

[good samaritan]

Brother, how do you think tithing even got started in Christianity? It started by a bunch of dark age heretics trying to make a "principle" of tithing, using the O.T. as the basic pattern. It was only adopted in "principle" in the 6th century, but became a strict commandment of men by the 8th century.

This suggestion is just history repeating itself.

I don't go by church history only by the scripture. History is always told from a person's viewpoint and we get their embellishments. I learned to tithe from the OT in the Bible. If you don't want to do it then don't. The NT commands to weekly give as the Lord has prospered you and tithing makes good application of that.

BTW...killing homosexuals is a O.T. command, do you practice that in "principle".

No I don't stone them, but I teach it is a sin. I don't think the apostles explicitly teach against homosexuality in scriptures and according to your logic it would be wrong to teach against it. Since it is just OT.

Looks to me that you guys would only like to see tithing established in "principle" here.

I am sorry I said tithing is a principle. Tithing is an "application" of the principle of giving. God will be the judge of how I have used my finances in life. No one has to tithe, but God will judge what they should or should not of given. I certainly want to be found trying to please God in my giving.It does matter.

[Esphes45]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

No I don't stone them, but I teach it is a sin. I don't think the apostles explicitly teach against homosexuality in scriptures and according to your logic it would be wrong to teach against it. Since it is just OT.

I guess the key word here being explicitly.

[KeptByTheWord]

Flaming... the easiest way to meet in the middle between the "tithers" and the "nontithers" would be to admit that the 10% is a good measuring stick for giving, but it is not a mandated "give or else" doctrine.

Tithing is not mentioned in the doctrinal foundations given to us in Hebrews 6:1, but you would think it was by the amount of time spent on teaching it in most churches. More valuable time should be spent on teaching how giving involves much more than just dollars and cents. Giving of your time, in most cases, is far more costly, and sacrificial than giving of the almighty dollar. Visiting prisons, nursing homes, the elderly, sick, handicapped, helping out a neighbor, volunteering in soup kitchens etc. ... these are just a few things that are part of living out a giving concept and a lifestyle that doesn't always have to involve a dollar bill.

[Godsdrummer]

Tithes and offering

So it seems we have gone around the circuit, with the tithe issue with no one being the winner. Ya I know it is not about anyone winning.

I have notice the differences in understanding of the OT command to tithe, based on what they have been taught. The thing is most of the teachings are not what is scriptural. neither is the power that many give to the priest. The priest had one primary obligation, that was the ministry to God within the tabernacle. This primarily was the offering of the daily sacrifices unto God, the sin sacrifices for the people, basically ministering to God, not to or for the people. The implication to teach was secondary, and only when the people has forsaken to obey God's commands. This ministry was given to the parents.

I might add that the tithe was never solely for the priest, and was not solely given to the priest. And was not monetary, but agricultural. And this was both for the lively hood of the priest and the needy.

Another thing that seems to be missed is that the priest hood is no longer in effect, because Christ has become our priest. The ministerial gifts are just that gifts, not positions of authority as found in most if not all the religious world today. We tend to misread Ephesians in our attempt to make the gifts of ministries in the church have an unbiblical authority. Let me emphasis this one more time. In the beginning the priest in the OT did not have the authority we have read into scriptures. And by that same token neither did the apostles in the New Testament have the authority as so many claim they had.
I was reading something someone else said, about how if the church did not obey an instruction that Paul had written to them, then said church would then be in disobedience to Paul. Where do we continue to get this idea of there being a separation between the saints and ministry? We see none of this type of separation in the ministry of Christ. Neither do we ever find Christ exercising authority over the people. Christ did not separate himself nor hold himself above the people and even taught against this. Too many use Ephesians 4:11-12 and Hebrews 13:17 as passages that supposedly give the ministry authority to rule over the saints. If this is so then why does Paul speak against this idea in Ephesians 5:21-26. He states that we are to submit one to another, and that Christ is the head of the church over the husband, he does not even imply a pastor nor one of the other so called ministries between Christ and the family.
We have been taught that God always speaks through a man, while this may be true in some instances, but in those instances, never in those times does God give authority to that man/women, that if you don’t obey them you are in rebellion to the man/woman. As a matter of fact, Paul stated that we are to be persuaded by those that oversee the church, not blindly being obedient to them just because they hold a position that is not scriptural in the first place.
So how might you ask does this relate to paying tithes? Simple really, if there is no authoritive rule in the church, then there is first off no need to pay a person in authority. Secondly to go back under the teaching of paying a tenth, puts one back under the law, which it has been stated by the apostles that to keep one part of the law makes one subject to all the law.
Does this mean that there are not services, or servants within the body that should be paid? Of course there are. Even Paul said that if one serves as a minster that they should be able to live of the ministry. “Muzzle not the ox that treads the corn” Going back to the ministries spoken by Paul in Ephesians and overseers spoken of by Paul within the body, if their work takes up more time ministering to the body, that they cannot support themselves outside the body, they should be recompensed from the body. While the financial support of the body can be given as a tenth or simply in the form of offerings, there is no primary set obligation other than to give cheerfully and from the abundance of the heart.
Of course I realize that there are those that will disagree with part or all of this, but this is my stand from my personal study.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Tithes and offering

So it seems we have gone around the circuit, with the tithe issue with no one being the winner. Ya I know it is not about anyone winning.

I have notice the differences in understanding of the OT command to tithe, based on what they have been taught. The thing is most of the teachings are not what is scriptural. neither is the power that many give to the priest. The priest had one primary obligation, that was the ministry to God within the tabernacle. This primarily was the offering of the daily sacrifices unto God, the sin sacrifices for the people, basically ministering to God, not to or for the people. The implication to teach was secondary, and only when the people has forsaken to obey God's commands. This ministry was given to the parents.

I might add that the tithe was never solely for the priest, and was not solely given to the priest. And was not monetary, but agricultural. And this was both for the lively hood of the priest and the needy.

Another thing that seems to be missed is that the priest hood is no longer in effect, because Christ has become our priest. The ministerial gifts are just that gifts, not positions of authority as found in most if not all the religious world today. We tend to misread Ephesians in our attempt to make the gifts of ministries in the church have an unbiblical authority. Let me emphasis this one more time. In the beginning the priest in the OT did not have the authority we have read into scriptures. And by that same token neither did the apostles in the New Testament have the authority as so many claim they had.
I was reading something someone else said, about how if the church did not obey an instruction that Paul had written to them, then said church would then be in disobedience to Paul. Where do we continue to get this idea of there being a separation between the saints and ministry? We see none of this type of separation in the ministry of Christ. Neither do we ever find Christ exercising authority over the people. Christ did not separate himself nor hold himself above the people and even taught against this. Too many use Ephesians 4:11-12 and Hebrews 13:17 as passages that supposedly give the ministry authority to rule over the saints. If this is so then why does Paul speak against this idea in Ephesians 5:21-26. He states that we are to submit one to another, and that Christ is the head of the church over the husband, he does not even imply a pastor nor one of the other so called ministries between Christ and the family.
We have been taught that God always speaks through a man, while this may be true in some instances, but in those instances, never in those times does God give authority to that man/women, that if you don’t obey them you are in rebellion to the man/woman. As a matter of fact, Paul stated that we are to be persuaded by those that oversee the church, not blindly being obedient to them just because they hold a position that is not scriptural in the first place.
So how might you ask does this relate to paying tithes? Simple really, if there is no authoritive rule in the church, then there is first off no need to pay a person in authority. Secondly to go back under the teaching of paying a tenth, puts one back under the law, which it has been stated by the apostles that to keep one part of the law makes one subject to all the law.
Does this mean that there are not services, or servants within the body that should be paid? Of course there are. Even Paul said that if one serves as a minster that they should be able to live of the ministry. “Muzzle not the ox that treads the corn” Going back to the ministries spoken by Paul in Ephesians and overseers spoken of by Paul within the body, if their work takes up more time ministering to the body, that they cannot support themselves outside the body, they should be recompensed from the body. While the financial support of the body can be given as a tenth or simply in the form of offerings, there is no primary set obligation other than to give cheerfully and from the abundance of the heart.
Of course I realize that there are those that will disagree with part or all of this, but this is my stand from my personal study.