Chris, do you have Biblical proof? I mean, of course the swords were for self-defense! So why did Jesus tell them that if they didn't have one, to sell their coat and buy one? Didn't they trust Jesus and God to protect them? After all, that's the question you asked me earlier, remember?
I believe they misunderstood Jesus. David K. Bernard wrote regarding this saying,
Quote:
"Why did Jesus tell His disciples on one occasion to
carry swords? (Luke 22:35-38). After the Last Supper,
Jesus gave new instructions to His disciples relative to the
preaching of the gospel. Earlier in His ministry, He had
sent them out without purse (money) or bag (supply of
food), telling them to depend upon the hospitality of the
people. Now, however, He told them to take purse, bag,
and sword. Possibly, He meant for them to take swords for
protection against wild beasts and robbers (to frighten off
or ward off the latter, not to kill them).
More probably, His allusion to the sword was
metaphoric. In other words, He was warning that they
would no longer enjoy a hearty welcome in every place,
but would face bitter opposition. Therefore, they should
learn to provide for themselves and to brace themselves
spiritually against attack and persecution.
Upon hearing this, the disciples found two swords
and brought them to Christ. He told them, “It is enough.”
Two swords are not adequate for twelve men. Apparently,
the disciples failed to understand Christ’s real meaning
at that time. When He saw them bringing two literal
swords, He decided to drop the subject. This view receives
support from Christ’s admonition to Peter a short time
later. When Peter actually tried to use one of these swords
in Christ’s defense, He forbade him with words that
denounce all killing. Furthermore, never again do we hear
of the disciples resisting violence with violence, although
they were subjected to violence many times."
- David K. Bernard, Practical Holiness
After much prayer and soul searching I find the above interpretation to be in harmony with the Spirit of Christ.
__________________
"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
Thanks for being a good sport with my 'gut feeling' ribbing that I've been giving you....LOL!
There are lots of things I believe about the Clinton administration in regard to the events that led to 9-11 as well as the mysterious deaths of several prominent people. Of course, you could say that it's my turn to have a 'gut feeling'.
I feel it too. I don't know about the deaths of prominent people and all...but I do feel Clinton missed opportunities that may have prevented 9/11. I can't imagine the ghosts that haunt President Clinton when he considers those missed opportunities.
__________________
"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
Easty, God punishes nations when "their cup of iniquity" is full. (see Amaleck)
I do believe that the Civil War was the judgement of God on America for the sin of slavery, remember that it was not the founding fathers generation(s) that suffered. the Civil war started 89 years after the Declaration of Independence.
So in part one must agree that the generation that sins isnt always the one that is punished. God allows time for the cup to be emptied in repentance or filled before he decides to forgo judgement or execute it on a nation.
But also understand that when God punishes a nation, it is total. Anyone who thinks 9/11 was Gods judgement has a small opinion of the Judgement of God.
Compair the loss of 3,000 on 9/11 to OT judement. Amaleck was distroyed in total. God said kill their men, women, children, sheep, goats, cows, and everything that lives. Israel and Judah were sent into slavery.
If one believes as I do that the Civil War was the judgement of God on America, consider that more Americans were killed/died from that war than in all the other wars we have fought combined!
Consider also that if Bombing Japan was a "sin" in Gods eyes, and sistimic/institutionalized racism that existed in America until the 1960's was a sin in Gods eyes, then it stands to reason that God in his grace gives a nation to repent.
Consider the shifting attitudes of Americans toward wholesale war, that in Iraq, we do not bomb civilian populations (turning a different direction from the past).
Consider the landmark legal decisions of the supreme court overturning institutionalized racism (sperate but equal), the vast amount of law that has been passed to counter racism. Consider that while we still have predjudice/racism today (read Rico's thread, it is brilliant), we are nowhere near as bad as we were in 1940 or even in 1980.
If God provides time for a nation to turn, then this nation has in many ways either done so or is doing so. And thus must be seen by God as worthy of more time.
Clearly then 9/11 cannot be the judement of God.
but that's just my 2 cents.
Sounds good Ferd; however, Gods judgement would have to fall fairly. Blood was spilled on innocent lives in order for the slaves to be freed. In keeping with the idea that God is just, why would innocent lives have to die for innocent men to be set free? That doesn't sound like God's wrath. Do you suppose that Christians are going to be killed because of God's wrath?
Easty, God punishes nations when "their cup of iniquity" is full. (see Amaleck)
I do believe that the Civil War was the judgement of God on America for the sin of slavery, remember that it was not the founding fathers generation(s) that suffered. the Civil war started 89 years after the Declaration of Independence.
So in part one must agree that the generation that sins isnt always the one that is punished. God allows time for the cup to be emptied in repentance or filled before he decides to forgo judgement or execute it on a nation.
But also understand that when God punishes a nation, it is total. Anyone who thinks 9/11 was Gods judgement has a small opinion of the Judgement of God.
Compair the loss of 3,000 on 9/11 to OT judement. Amaleck was distroyed in total. God said kill their men, women, children, sheep, goats, cows, and everything that lives. Israel and Judah were sent into slavery.
If one believes as I do that the Civil War was the judgement of God on America, consider that more Americans were killed/died from that war than in all the other wars we have fought combined!
Consider also that if Bombing Japan was a "sin" in Gods eyes, and sistimic/institutionalized racism that existed in America until the 1960's was a sin in Gods eyes, then it stands to reason that God in his grace gives a nation to repent.
Consider the shifting attitudes of Americans toward wholesale war, that in Iraq, we do not bomb civilian populations (turning a different direction from the past).
Consider the landmark legal decisions of the supreme court overturning institutionalized racism (sperate but equal), the vast amount of law that has been passed to counter racism. Consider that while we still have predjudice/racism today (read Rico's thread, it is brilliant), we are nowhere near as bad as we were in 1940 or even in 1980.
If God provides time for a nation to turn, then this nation has in many ways either done so or is doing so. And thus must be seen by God as worthy of more time.
Clearly then 9/11 cannot be the judement of God.
but that's just my 2 cents.
I read what you said in Bro. Eastman's response and wanted to say that you have presented good points.
But what are your thoughts on this....
I don't believe that 9/11 was "THE judgment of God" per se but rather God removing his hand of protection from us in an effort to reveal our vulnerability as a warning. It may serve as the first domino in God's over all purpose to judge our nation seeing that it has expanded into a global war that has left us even more enemies than before and created a government prone to domestic spying and the violation of even more civil liberties. I feel in my spirit that 9/11 was only the beginning of a story that could end with America calling for international aid after a strategic terrorist counter strike using weapons we pray they never acquire if we don't reach her with the Gospel.
9/11 may not seem like the judgment of God if viewed all by itself. However, when all is said and done and it is viewed in the context of the greater struggle unfolding...it may prove to having been the beginning of the end of the United States.
P.S.
It should be noted that we still have the majority of the last generation living that witnessed the unveiling of the American Government's abominable actions involving the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment. We may find at least some of the acts mentioned in Jeremiah's condemnation included in God's testimony against America should His judgment fall upon this generation of Americans. I can't see God ignoring such a heinous crime against human beings.
__________________
"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
I am exiting this discussion because I am too disgusted to continue. I would would have a hard time continuing in a Christian fashion.
Have at it Chrissy boy. You are the Democrat National Party poster boy for Pentecost. You have swallowed every modern liberal piece of propaganda put out there for mushy young minds.
Thank God men and women have been willing to fight for your right to spew this pacifist swill. Of course Christians in prayer are important. Your point was obvious. Christians praying for world situations and Christians actually fighting in just causes are not mutually exclusive. As usual a liberal presents a false conundrum.
I am exiting this discussion because I am too disgusted to continue. I would would have a hard time continuing in a Christian fashion.
Have at it Chrissy boy. You are the Democrat National Party poster boy for Pentecost. You have swallowed every modern liberal piece of propaganda put out there for mushy young minds.
Thank God men and women have been willing to fight for your right to spew this pacifist swill. Of course Christians in prayer are important. Your point was obvious. Christians praying for world situations and Christians actually fighting in just causes are not mutually exclusive. As usual a liberal presents a false conundrum.
I'm terribly sorry if you were offended CC1. I didn't say anything that was contrary to Scripture, the classical position of Pentecostals in the history of our founding, the UPCI Articles of Faith, or the position held by respected men of God such as David K. Bernard who are featured on the required reading list for UPCI ministers.
Let's do more than support our troops...lets pray for them. Let's also pray for the young and impressionable Arab young people who are manipulated and sent do die as pawns by corrupt Islamic Fundamentalists in their Jihad. Let's pray for their mothers and their fathers and for a revival leading to a just society throughout the Middle East that will present more opportunities for the current generations of Arab young people than Paradise.
God bless and keep you Brother CC1. Goodnight.
P.S.
You can feel free to call me Bro. Chris or just Chris. I'm not big on formalities or titles.
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"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
CH, I don't have time tonight to wade through pages of posts, but I will say that the positions you should embrace should be dear to you because they are based on scripture--not because they are espoused by the UPCI, or because an "anointed man of God" told you so, or because they are "classical positions." Ultimately, you need to be able to defend your belief system from the Word of God, because the Word is the final authority on every issue, and if you cannot defend a position scripturally, then you should be able to confess that perhaps it is an erroneous one, or at very least, not worth offending your brother over.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
CH, I don't have time tonight to wade through pages of posts, but I will say that the positions you should embrace should be dear to you because they are based on scripture--not because they are espoused by the UPCI, or because an "anointed man of God" told you so, or because they are "classical positions." Ultimately, you need to be able to defend your belief system from the Word of God, because the Word is the final authority on every issue, and if you cannot defend a position scripturally, then you should be able to confess that perhaps it is an erroneous one, or at very least, not worth offending your brother over.
And I firmly believe I have demonstrated that my position is indeed based on the Word of God. Can anyone provide New Testament evidence or examples of Christians waging war or using lethal force against their enemies?
I know it's often said tongue in cheek...but really...who would Jesus have me bomb? Who would Jesus have me sniper?
The Combat Medic
A battlefield’s a lonely place, each one a fox before the hounds,
sole target of the hunt. Each one a hound, both stalked and stalking.
Each ammo flash, each scream, each moan belongs to all--the air alive
with sound and blood and body parts. A no man’s land of violence.
A bullet finds its home. A fox brought down, a hunter stilled,
alone in pain and shadow, bloody mud and sand, shrouded in mist
and memory. The hunt recedes to stalk another fox.
A healer moves amidst the carnage, seeking out the fallen.
Sure and steady hands find a pulse, probe to stop the life force flowing out.
The touch: “You’re not alone. I’ve found you. We’re here together, you and I.”
Two soldiers finding healing in the chaos.
-Linda Lucas Walling
__________________
"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
And I firmly believe I have demonstrated that my position is indeed based on the Word of God. Can anyone provide New Testament evidence or examples of Christians waging war or using lethal force against their enemies?
I know it's often said tongue in cheek...but really...who would Jesus have me bomb? Who would Jesus have me sniper?
I'm not going to argue this particular topic right now, one way or the other. But you keep mentioning classical "positions" and writings by men, when in fact you need to be referencing scriptures to prove your points. First of all, it simply carries more weight, and secondly the UPCI, the AOF or the Manual--well, those are not the holy grail of doctrine and Christianity. I respect the men who formed them, but I still rest my beliefs on the Word, and since the Word is common ground with other Christians, you would do much better to argue your points from there.
That's all I'm saying.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
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