Pastoral Authority....where did it come from?

[MomOfADramaQn]

Originally Posted by OnTheFritz

This may offend some, but I hope not. I believe that sometimes people pursue careers that allow their already existing behaviors to flourish. I think that the ministry is an appealing profession for egomaniacs. It allows those with major control issues to exercise control. So, I don't think it should be a surprise to anyone that certain pastors have major control issues. They aren't controlling because they're pastors - they're pastors so they can be controlling!

I won't even say that this is the majority of pastors. I have a huge amount of respect more my pastor and many others. It's a difficult job - made all the more difficult by the existence of people that fit these stereotypes.

Not offensive at all - at least to me - because it is the truth -there are lots of preachers out there with HUGE egos but there are MANY out there also that are really good men of God - those egomaniacs get too much recognition.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by OnTheFritz

This may offend some, but I hope not. I believe that sometimes people pursue careers that allow their already existing behaviors to flourish. I think that the ministry is an appealing profession for egomaniacs. It allows those with major control issues to exercise control. So, I don't think it should be a surprise to anyone that certain pastors have major control issues. They aren't controlling because they're pastors - they're pastors so they can be controlling!

I won't even say that this is the majority of pastors. I have a huge amount of respect more my pastor and many others. It's a difficult job - made all the more difficult by the existence of people that fit these stereotypes.

Excellent thoughts. The job is hard and if you aren't in it for the right reasons and do not have the ability to set up proper boundaries as a pastor then you end up with your family lost, broken marriage, and possibly a pastor might find himself losing his way.

Being a pastor is about serving others through the love of Jesus Christ. The authority comes from experience and proven ability as a leader not necessarily some great amount of spirituality. In Pentecostalism we want to over-spiritualize everything to the point that we think that if God has called a young man that he is naturally ready for the job. When in reality the Holy Spirit usually doesn't take a 25 year old man and give him the wisdom of a 40 year old. You can't have the mind of a 40 year old until you have experienced being 40 years old.

Of course this can go both ways. There can be a passionate young man who is also being held back by bondage and unrighteous men.

I am not saying that God doesn't call young men but being tried in the fire is the only way that our understanding is opened to many things of God.

[Coffee99]

There are a great many pastors who have inflated egos, just as there are a great number of church members who have inflated egos. However, it's been my experience that there are more good ones than bad - on both sides. I've seen some horrible pastors who want to manipulate and control. But, I've seen more who are the first to be there to help when there is trouble, who love and care for their congregations, who spend more time at hospital beds and counseling sessions than with their own families, and who will drop what they are doing to help a person in trouble.

IMHO, I don't think anyone can justify pastoral authority as being from the pits of hell anymore than you can say the role of a supervisor at work is from the pits of hell. I also don't think anyone can justify bad pastoral control as just as I don't think one can justify spousal abuse as caring and correction. As On the Fritz said, controlling pastors are controlling people and look for a place to fully exercise that control. Just like caring pastors are caring people and look for a place to show that care.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Pastors DO have quite a bit of authority as leaders of their particular congregation. It is in the same same vein as the president of the local chapter of "fill in the name" has over their group as well. God recognizes government and grants the pastor authority just as he does the members of your town council or president of the local knitting club.

I don't really see "the Hand of God" in the selection and anointing of the local bowling league president. I'd like to associate my thoughts of Deity with loftier interests. However necessary the bowling league leadership may be - tournament seeding, trophy engraving and all of that - these affairs are usually considered "secular" in nature.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Coffee99

There are a great many pastors who have inflated egos, just as there are a great number of church members who have inflated egos. However, it's been my experience that there are more good ones than bad - on both sides. I've seen some horrible pastors who want to manipulate and control. But, I've seen more who are the first to be there to help when there is trouble, who love and care for their congregations, who spend more time at hospital beds and counseling sessions than with their own families, and who will drop what they are doing to help a person in trouble.

IMHO, I don't think anyone can justify pastoral authority as being from the pits of hell anymore than you can say the role of a supervisor at work is from the pits of hell. I also don't think anyone can justify bad pastoral control as just as I don't think one can justify spousal abuse as caring and correction. As On the Fritz said, controlling pastors are controlling people and look for a place to fully exercise that control. Just like caring pastors are caring people and look for a place to show that care.

A church is going to take on the spirit of the pastor. If the pastor is controlling the folks then they will come to depend on him for every bit of drama in their lives. The pastor, who needs his ego inflated will attract people who will feed his ego and he will enable them to continue in their childish ways.

A controlling pastor will always have a church full of drama, panic attacks, crisis, and a whole lot of prescription drugs for anxiety. You end up with this cycle of craziness and a little dysfunctional family who intermarry and becomes even more dysfunctional with every generation.

Now, if a few morons and a crazy pastor want to have a weird little church of 10 people then that is fine. The problem is that innocent people get caught up in these situations. New converts, children that are born into the group, saints that move from out of town and are looking for a church that "teaches the doctrine", and family members that get caught in the crossfire are the ones who are damaged from these types of churches and the ministers that emerge from them.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by New Guy

How does someone get by with that? Why do people stay in those churches?

Fear. Fear that if they 'rebel' against the pastor, they are rebelling against God.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

A church is going to take on the spirit of the pastor. If the pastor is controlling the folks then they will come to depend on him for every bit of drama in their lives. The pastor, who needs his ego inflated will attract people who will feed his ego and he will enable them to continue in their childish ways.

A controlling pastor will always have a church full of drama, panic attacks, crisis, and a whole lot of prescription drugs for anxiety. You end up with this cycle of craziness and a little dysfunctional family who intermarry and becomes even more dysfunctional with every generation.

Now, if a few morons and a crazy pastor want to have a weird little church of 10 people then that is fine. The problem is that innocent people get caught up in these situations. New converts, children that are born into the group, saints that move from out of town and are looking for a church that "teaches the doctrine", and family members that get caught in the crossfire are the ones who are damaged from these types of churches and the ministers that emerge from them.

I've seen that if he persists he will often develop acolytes who will seek to emulate his ways. These guys will often cause the worst sorts of trouble.

Did you ever notice that in all those "UPC is a CULT!!!" stories that are scattered around the Internet - the pastor involved is usually a control freak that wound up being kicked out of the UP of C? I guess there's a point that you're not supposed to cross - or maybe the attendant publicity left a bad taste in everyone's mouth?

How about conferences and seminars on "How Not to Publicly Humiliate Yourself and Your Brethren by Making a Public Nuisance of Youself by Trying to Dominate the Lives of Innocent Victims in Your New Community"? - - - a lot of these cases seem to be guys founding a new church after "serving" under the leadership of a strong personality. Maybe they're just trying to validate themselves. Maybe they're just misguided. Maybe one day they'll stop acting like this.

[New Guy]

Originally Posted by OnTheFritz

This may offend some, but I hope not. I believe that sometimes people pursue careers that allow their already existing behaviors to flourish. I think that the ministry is an appealing profession for egomaniacs. It allows those with major control issues to exercise control. So, I don't think it should be a surprise to anyone that certain pastors have major control issues. They aren't controlling because they're pastors - they're pastors so they can be controlling!

I won't even say that this is the majority of pastors. I have a huge amount of respect more my pastor and many others. It's a difficult job - made all the more difficult by the existence of people that fit these stereotypes.

I think this is a good point. But, it just seems to me that most of this type of behavior comes from a more conservative point of view. Like I said, I have been on other apostolic forums and it just seems like the more conservative ones really major on that point. I also haven't really seen it that much outside of the penetecostal religion either.

I guess I just don't understand where it comes from and how they seem to continue to get away with it. What power do they have over these folks in their churches?

[*AQuietPlace*]

To answer the question - "Pastoral authority, where did it come from?" - I think the idea comes from the scripture Miss Brat quoted.... 'obey them that have the rule over you, for they watch for your soul'. I've heard that quoted for that purpose all of my life.

I think the scripture is open for interpretation, though. "them that have the rule over you" - who is 'them', and where are they given the rule? How much 'rule' should they have, in what areas of our lives?

I do definitely know pastors who think that they pretty much have the right to tell people what brand of toilet paper they have to buy. I think we have to study the scriptures to understand exactly what/why/how much authority a pastor has.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I've seen that if he persists he will often develop acolytes who will seek to emulate his ways. These guys will often cause the worst sorts of trouble.

Did you ever notice that in all those "UPC is a CULT!!!" stories that are scattered around the Internet - the pastor involved is usually a control freak that wound up being kicked out of the UP of C? I guess there's a point that you're not supposed to cross - or maybe the attendant publicity left a bad taste in everyone's mouth?

How about conferences and seminars on "How Not to Publicly Humiliate Yourself and Your Brethren by Making a Public Nuisance of Youself by Trying to Dominate the Lives of Innocent Victims in Your New Community"? - - - a lot of these cases seem to be guys founding a new church after "serving" under the leadership of a strong personality. Maybe they're just trying to validate themselves. Maybe they're just misguided. Maybe one day they'll stop acting like this.

And to think. If we kept our emphasis on Jesus and the word of God much of this wouldn't happen. Incorrect doctrine will always lead to legalism and extra biblical teachings and an environment that breeds insanity. I am convinced that doctrine and misunderstanding of scripture lead to much of these problems.

However, if our faith is completely in Jesus and his work at Calvary then so many of these issues can be avoided. Proper faith allows the Holy Spirit to start working on the many areas of our life in ways that we can't even imagine or even knew existed.

I know that I was clueless to many of my problems but when I finally turned my life over to Christ fully he opened my eyes to so many things that I didn't understand.

Legalism fights the symptom while the Holy Spirit and the word of God deals to the cause of the problem. Just another reason why legalism is so dangerous.