Should standards be an issue when witnessing?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by LadyChocolate

thank you............. how sweet!























Now how much was that I owed you for saying that??? LOL!!!

That'll be one three bedroom mobile home, please! Hehehehehe! Just messin with ya!

[LadyChocolate]

[GodsBabyGirl]

Originally Posted by Singrkel

My husband and I were talking about standards tonight and we were saying that since they are such a big deal in most if not all UPC churches, why don't they preach it along with Acts 2:38 and the oneness.? If it IS a heaven or hell issue, like they make it out to be, we should be shouting it from the roof tops, and yet you never specifically hear them say skirts or pants are necessary. In fact, they never even preach on it, at least in my experiences anyway. Doesn't make a lot of sense. I hope all of this will make sense to me someday, cause it really doesn't right now at all....

I have also gone to independent smaller Apostolic churches that DID teach and preach standards HARD.

And I can tell you, not many folks came to these churces. Hence why I call them small.

They had NO outreach whatsoever. They had this mentality of us four and no more. Everyone was going to hell but their little church of 37!

I think it is wisdom that leads leadership in UPC to not harp on standards so much. I am not saying dont teach on it all. When I was in GA, I was a new convert Sunday School teacher and the pastor told me to teach incorporate standards into the curriculm.

I eventually did it. But it wasnt the first or second or even third lessons. We both agreed that the most important issue was them understanding the foundations of the faith.

This is why it is not taught so hard....

[Brother Price]

I have found that in the majority of standards holding churches in my area, outreach is not a big deal. The us-4-and-no-more mentality abides strong. In some churches, outsiders are tolerated at best, even when they come to Christ. This is so sad.

[Rhoni]

Most small churches are small for numerous reasons; 1] that Pastor's ability to lead and to grow 'leaders', 2] teachings major on the minor issues, such as; dress standards [putting the proverbial cart before the horse], and 'works' of the church as an act of belief or loyalty to the Pastor and not belief that Jesus is who he says he is, and a lack of love for souls [hence the us four and no more]. When God's hands are tied by the limitations we place on him, all people see is us and not him.

The Bible teaches,..."When the devil, like a flood, comes against us, Jesus will raise up a standard against him", not us raising a dress standard but we fight under the banner/standard of Jesus voictories not our own.

Blessings, Rhoni

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Staysharp, you are taking many verses out of context.

1) the law is the law of Moses, Paul is talking about the Law of Moses.
2) there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ WHO WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT AND NOT AFTER THE FLESH. There is a stipulation to this verse about "NO CONDEMNATION"

I'm not disagreeing with your assertion that "Legalism is another Jesus" but with your use, or I should say, misuse of scripture to back up what you are saying.

You're also misapplying the "outward appearance" verse from 1 Samuel. There was nothing mentioned about legalism when God was talking to Samuel about David.


We are to dress modestly, there is no doubt about that. Even people in the Bible recognized a whore when they saw one by the outward appearance.

Finally, you quoted a verse which actually might apply to the point you are trying to make.

Thank you for trying to correct me, but you obviously do not understand the work of the cross. My scriptures are correct and any work which takes us away from the finished work of Christ is flesh. We depend totally on Christ for our salvation, not anything we can do. Including the sacraments.

Spiritually, you cannot dwell in grace and law at the same time. Paul had this problem with the Galatians. You either dwell in grace or the law. There is no in between.

Typical OP's do not understand the work of the cross. They are constantly adding works to what Christ did. This comes from our Catholic roots. When you walk after the Spirit, you walk after what Christ did at Calvary. This verse does not mean crying, speaking in tongues at the altar and running around the church.

Acts 2:38 IS NOT THE PLAN OF SALVATION. The plan of salvation is God's son dying on the cross for you and I. John 3:16 That was God's plan to redeem humanity.

Acts 2:38 is the response to what God has done for us. Whatever we do for God, we do out of love for Him. We cannot even love God, except He first turn our hearts toward Him and love us first.

With regard to Samuel's statement, it still stands. God does not look at the outward appearance, but looks at the heart. This is not a statement concerning one person, this is a statement regarding the nature of God. This is why faith is the only avenue to God. Because, it comes from the center of our existence, the heart.

This is why Jesus chastised the Pharisees repeatedly. Their looks were deceiving. Modesty is relative in today's culture. What may offend one, doesn't offend another. Each women should be sensitive to God's leading in her dress as a man should too.

When a women or man receives the Holy Ghost, they will not dress like a whore. A whore does not have the Holy Ghost. When God changes you, he changes your nature.

I've always used this litmus test throughout my ministry and have applied it constantly to my life. Anybody can fill in the blank.

"If my _______ could save me, I wouldn't need the cross.

God bless.

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by Brother Price

I have found that in the majority of standards holding churches in my area, outreach is not a big deal. The us-4-and-no-more mentality abides strong. In some churches, outsiders are tolerated at best, even when they come to Christ. This is so sad.

Bro., these churches do not want new people. They are not even churches. They are a gathering place for the offended. The only attraction is offense, not Christ.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by SavedLou

I'm curious to see how people might feel about this. I've been talking to a coworker about stuff for a while and she has visited and enjoys the UPC church in her town (my church and her home are over an hour away so her visiting with me isn't an option for her). She is very hungry but she is hesitant about standards and i've just told her not to worry about all of that for now. I'm afraid the pastor of the church she visits might try to make it an issue b/c they are VERY conservative. It's a tough situation. Anyone ever had visitors "run away" b/c of this?

I'm for standards, but i do not think we should be concerned with utilizing this method during the witness process. People will see the difference in our spiritual attitudes, and be inclined to follow whether we have the right attitude about it or not. I have noticed that when you love the converts unconditionally as new brothers or sisters they usually do not have an issue with standards; however, I've seen where people have left church altogether because it was someones number one issue.

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Most small churches are small for numerous reasons; 1] that Pastor's ability to lead and to grow 'leaders', 2] teachings major on the minor issues, such as; dress standards [putting the proverbial cart before the horse], and 'works' of the church as an act of belief or loyalty to the Pastor and not belief that Jesus is who he says he is, and a lack of love for souls [hence the us four and no more]. When God's hands are tied by the limitations we place on him, all people see is us and not him.

The Bible teaches,..."When the devil, like a flood, comes against us, Jesus will raise up a standard against him", not us raising a dress standard but we fight under the banner/standard of Jesus voictories not our own.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhone, you are 100% correct. A few things I might add. Outward standards do two things. Create spiritual pride and a false sense of identity.

When a child is made to defend needlessly their dress in school and refute harsh criticism, as a coping mechanism, they are told by those who are in authority over them, "we do this because we are God's children and special to God. You don't wear pants, because Jesus doesn't love girls who wear pants. The other kids aren't saved and aren't going to heaven. You, however are chosen by God to represent him. This make you special."

So, as this child grows, it's implanted into their psyche that their unusual dress is a form of worship and attaches to their identity. Once this occurs, Satan now has access to divert their faith away from Christ towards self. The oldest trick in the book. If he can accomplish that, he destroys their salvation without them even knowing it.

I wish I had a nickel for every time I heard "it's our identity". Sadly, their absolutely right. A false identity which they themselves find security in. However, they do not understand that no one on the planet is interested in Christ through their clothes.

Jesus tells us what our identity is; by this shall all men know you are my disciples. That you would love on another as I have loved you.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by SavedLou

I'm curious to see how people might feel about this. I've been talking to a coworker about stuff for a while and she has visited and enjoys the UPC church in her town (my church and her home are over an hour away so her visiting with me isn't an option for her). She is very hungry but she is hesitant about standards and i've just told her not to worry about all of that for now. I'm afraid the pastor of the church she visits might try to make it an issue b/c they are VERY conservative. It's a tough situation. Anyone ever had visitors "run away" b/c of this?

Of course not! Every educated woman in the world longs to have someone tell her she is a jezebel and going to hell for puttiing on some concealer and lipstick! They long for someone to tell them putting a ring on their finger or a necklace on is going to send them to hell and displeases God (of course if they have a $5000 rolex they can keep wearing that - they just have to get rid of the twenty dollar costume jewelry).

Luckily half of the world's population is men and they can still look like they belong on the cover of GQ magazine when they get in church. For that reason I reccomend concentrating on witnessing to men.