Change After Water Baptism?

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Billy Boy

Bob is not the name of the father , son and holy ghost - Jesus is! You cannot separate Jesus from those titles - There is no one else who can claim those three titles! They are who Jesus is! I believe that because I am oneness!

Exactly BILLY and the name FATHER SON HS designates nothing but aspects of who he is. His name declared unto us FOR salvation is what.... JESUS!
There is ONE NAME given unto men....!

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Well considering you ar not saved until you are united with the blood of Christ and in his death in baptism you are not saved.... Nice way to jump the gun as usual Sam!

It is no fun arguing with you baptismal regeneration guys anymore. We can leave out all truth, doctrine, rules of biblical interpretation, and the beliefs of Christianity since the reformation. No matter what point is made you guys will still jump through hoops tossssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss sssssssssssssssssssaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa;llllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllll Let us just admit that this is all about preserving the doctrinal identity of this movement at all cost.

Above you state that we are not saved until we are united with the blood of Christ AND in his death in baptism. Well how does this happen? How do we obtain our salvation? We have to follow these three steps of obedience in order experience new birth yet for some reason no other obedience matters.

[Billy Boy]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Exactly BILLY and the name FATHER SON HS designates nothing but aspects of who he is. His name declared unto us FOR salvation is what.... JESUS!
There is ONE NAME given unto men....!

Thank You, and the Disciples knew that Jesus was the father, son and holy ghost also, that is why they had no problem refering to Him by any or all of those titles or Jesus! Too many oneness people are so hung up on the name that they miss his attributes!

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

It is no fun arguing with you baptismal regeneration guys anymore. We can leave out all truth, doctrine, rules of biblical interpretation, and the beliefs of Christianity since the reformation. No matter what point is made you guys will still jump through hoops tossssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss sssssssssssssssssssaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa;llllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllll Let us just admit that this is all about preserving the doctrinal identity of this movement at all cost.

Above you state that we are not saved until we are united with the blood of Christ AND in his death in baptism. Well how does this happen? How do we obtain our salvation? We have to follow these three steps of obedience in order experience new birth yet for some reason no other obedience matters.

I have no stake in "the movement" to win at all costs. Truth prevails no matter my or anyone elses intentions. scripture is very clear. You need to study the failures of Luther and his translation in German concerning "faith" and many other aspects as well. The Reformation is just the start of many failures.
I imagine it's not fun being on the wrong side of the argument. I also find that people that don't believe in baptism for remission of sins usually have a poor understanding of works and that without obedience you cannot be saved.

To come into covenant is one thing. To stay in covenant is another. Obedience is essential to salvation. It's called being faithful.

I find people that don't believe in baptism is essential to the new birth experience have little to go on have to change a lot of scripture to mean something else than what it clearly says. I don't have to jump through hoops as scripture is very clear concerning baptism. History also shows that viewpiont as you won't find anything but baptism is essential for the first 1500+ years.

[LUKE2447]

nm

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

I have no stake in "the movement" to win at all costs. Truth prevails no matter my or anyone elses intentions. scripture is very clear. You need to study the failures of Luther and his translation in German concerning "faith" and many other aspects as well. The Reformation is just the start of many failures.
I imagine it's not fun being on the wrong side of the argument. I also find that people that don't believe in baptism for remission of sins usually have a poor understanding of works and that without obedience you cannot be saved.

To come into covenant is one thing. To stay in covenant is another. Obedience is essential to salvation. It's called being faithful.

I find people that don't believe in baptism is essential to the new birth experience have little to go on have to change a lot of scripture to mean something else than what it clearly says. I don't have to jump through hoops as scripture is very clear concerning baptism. History also shows that viewpiont as you won't find anything but baptism is essential for the first 1500+ years.

Yes, truth will prevail. True faith is always accompanied by obedience. However, the obedience you talk about is repentance, water baptism, and speaking in tongues. However, the greatest commandment is to love the lord our God and our neighbor as ourself. If this is the greatest commandment why is our emphasis on baptisms as obedience.

If you are going to make obedience a prerequisite for new birth then the number one commandment has to come before anything else.

Also, if you want to look at messes just look at the confusion and just plain stupidity that is going on within the pentecostal circles of today. If Acts 2:38 is such a great revelation then why has God not blessed the movement. The Oneness movement itself has been plagued with confusion and coverups about it's own history and development of it's doctrine. We hear about the great revivals only to find out they didn't happen, we hear about miracles that will never be documented, we find that such and such groups are "looking our way" only to find that it is all just exaggerations if not outright lies, and we were told we where the fastest growing group twenty years ago and not only does it look like there hasn't been any growth we can't even get real numbers to know the truth.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Yes, truth will prevail. True faith is always accompanied by obedience. However, the obedience you talk about is repentance, water baptism, and speaking in tongues. However, the greatest commandment is to love the lord our God and our neighbor as ourself. If this is the greatest commandment why is our emphasis on baptisms as obedience.

Obviously you don't pay much attention to everything I have said in the past as I am probably the most vocal about LAW on this board concerning Mark12:29-31. Yo uare also confusing issues. Ever read a book by David Bernard? He clearly teaches on love in his books of Holiness and others. He is about as much a staple of doctrine as you can point to of a org than maybe besides The JW's Watch Tower or some others.

If you are going to make obedience a prerequisite for new birth then the number one commandment has to come before anything else.

Also you fail to understand the point of coming INTO covenant and staying IN covenant. They are not the same.

Also, if you want to look at messes just look at the confusion and just plain stupidity that is going on within the pentecostal circles of today. If Acts 2:38 is such a great revelation then why has God not blessed the movement.

Personal opinion based on what and please define blessed? The UPC was one of the fastest growing org for a long time. If truth is based on growth then I guess heretics are correct as well. As I can point all throughout history to show this argument is poor.

The Oneness movement itself has been plagued with confusion and coverups about it's own history and development of it's doctrine.

Oh please! Seriously, so men do certain things and that makes the EVERYTHING thing wrong. Then my friend you just destroyed the Reformation as it had plrenty of issues of violence, murder and total lawlessness! As far as I am concerned most of it was false doctrine anyway.

We hear about the great revivals only to find out they didn't happen, we hear about miracles that will never be documented, we find that such and such groups are "looking our way" only to find that it is all just exaggerations if not outright lies, and we were told we where the fastest growing group twenty years ago and not only does it look like there hasn't been any growth we can't even get real numbers to know the truth.

They did grow really fast the problem is splits in the org. I am not UPC but your points though just make me laugh at your logic... sorry but you can virtually point this as any org to some extent. LOL! Humans and organizations will always have some failures somewhere. Always have and always will. The kingdom of God in US! Orgs are nothing more than affiliations in which we see a common belief system, nothing else! Quit basing truth on organizations and the failures of men!

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Obviously you don't pay much attention to everything I have said in the past as I am probably the most vocal about LAW on this board concerning Mark12:29-31. Yo uare also confusing issues. Ever read a book by David Bernard? He clearly teaches on love in his books of Holiness and others. He is about as much a staple of doctrine as you can point to of a org than maybe besides The JW's Watch Tower or some others.



Also you fail to understand the point of coming INTO covenant and staying IN covenant. They are not the same.



Personal opinion based on what and please define blessed? The UPC was one of the fastest growing org for a long time. If truth is based on growth then I guess heretics are correct as well. As I can point all throughout history to show this argument is poor.



Oh please! Seriously, so men do certain things and that makes the EVERYTHING thing wrong. Then my friend you just destroyed the Reformation as it had plrenty of issues of violence, murder and total lawlessness! As far as I am concerned most of it was false doctrine anyway.



They did grow really fast the problem is splits in the org. I am not UPC but your points though just make me laugh at your logic... sorry but you can virtually point this as any org to some extent. LOL! Humans and organizations will always have some failures somewhere. Always have and always will. The kingdom of God in US! Orgs are nothing more than affiliations in which we see a common belief system, nothing else! Quit basing truth on organizations and the failures of men!

1) I have read most of David Bernard's books. Remember, I grew up UPC and believed it all. David Bernard holds to teaching traditional standards and UPC doctrine in a love based way. This is typical of the successful UPC pastors of today. They will love you and treat you with respect but in the back of their mind they are always trying to move you toward conforming to their standards of holiness. I heard a very well known UPC speaker say last year that, "you haven't truly converted them until they think you are right and everybody else is wrong." This man went through great detail to teach the pastor's attending the conference that they basically had to fool people into staying around long enough to start liking their church and then you can start working on them to conform. Sounds deceitful to me.

2) I guess I do fail to understand your concept of coming into covenant and staying in covenant. We are very far apart. I depend on Christ and his saving work at the cross for my salvation, justification, sanctification, and ultimately my glorification. I was not taught this growing up and I maintain that I was not taught the gospel. I tried for years to find God in the UPC and could not do it. I did everything I was taught but I couldn't fake it anymore.

3, 4, and 5) I do not judge a movement by certain men who mess up. However, I do believe that the movement has problems from the very foundation. There is a difference in having issues or typical problems that steam from imperfect men and problems that can't be avoided because the foundation is wrong to begin with.

What is the foundation of the UPC? Is it not Acts 2:38 and new birth by the process of following three steps? Does the UPC not interpret the rest of the bible through the lens of Acts 2:38?

If a person has repented and been baptized yet hasn't spoke in tongues they are not born again according to UPC doctrine.

Every time I mention a verse about salvation that is not from Acts I have UPC folks tell me that the epistles are only for those who are already saved.

So now we have a whole different way of interpreting the bible and a whole movement based on a doctrine that deemphasizes the need for Christ and total dependence on Him and focus on what WE do instead of what Christ does.

As far as a change after water baptism. No, none that I can tell because I was a heathen before and after my baptism. I didn't serve God. I didn't know what the gospel was. All I knew was that I needed to check it off my list in order to be saved.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

1) I have read most of David Bernard's books. Remember, I grew up UPC and believed it all. David Bernard holds to teaching traditional standards and UPC doctrine in a love based way. This is typical of the successful UPC pastors of today. They will love you and treat you with respect but in the back of their mind they are always trying to move you toward conforming to their standards of holiness. I heard a very well known UPC speaker say last year that, "you haven't truly converted them until they think you are right and everybody else is wrong." This man went through great detail to teach the pastor's attending the conference that they basically had to fool people into staying around long enough to start liking their church and then you can start working on them to conform. Sounds deceitful to me.

2) I guess I do fail to understand your concept of coming into covenant and staying in covenant. We are very far apart. I depend on Christ and his saving work at the cross for my salvation, justification, sanctification, and ultimately my glorification. I was not taught this growing up and I maintain that I was not taught the gospel. I tried for years to find God in the UPC and could not do it. I did everything I was taught but I couldn't fake it anymore.

3, 4, and 5) I do not judge a movement by certain men who mess up. However, I do believe that the movement has problems from the very foundation. There is a difference in having issues or typical problems that steam from imperfect men and problems that can't be avoided because the foundation is wrong to begin with.

What is the foundation of the UPC? Is it not Acts 2:38 and new birth by the process of following three steps? Does the UPC not interpret the rest of the bible through the lens of Acts 2:38?

If a person has repented and been baptized yet hasn't spoke in tongues they are not born again according to UPC doctrine.

Every time I mention a verse about salvation that is not from Acts I have UPC folks tell me that the epistles are only for those who are already saved.

So now we have a whole different way of interpreting the bible and a whole movement based on a doctrine that deemphasizes the need for Christ and total dependence on Him and focus on what WE do instead of what Christ does.

As far as a change after water baptism. No, none that I can tell because I was a heathen before and after my baptism. I didn't serve God. I didn't know what the gospel was. All I knew was that I needed to check it off my list in order to be saved.

Understand your points. Thanks for sharing!

Acts 2:38 is the foundation and a very powerful one. It only defines the soteriology of the movement not all of the movement. Yes, they are not born again based on the clear teaching of the expectations of the apostles which cannot be denied. They did expect something. The language they employ and many other aspects of Acts clearly show that mental assent to "knowledge" was not receiving the HS. Now how does receiving the HS relate to it all...... That's for you to seek God about. One thign is clear they expected something how that fits in.... again is up to you to search out.

Not sure why anyone pointing to the epistles would limit salvation to only Acts. True most of the epistles deals with issues of believers and not necessarily "initial" salvation or coming into the covenant but it does not negate it either. Usually many of these issues are dealt with poorly because of poor teaching and education. Not that it is not available but many preachers never went to formal education at all and lack structure in their studies etc... Thus you get what you got possibly.

I did not depend upon any preacher to teach me. I studied for myself virtually everything I could get my hands on. That includes all the major religions of Christianity. Mormon, JW's, Evangelical, RC, etc... Then I broke that down and studied all the views in the protestant world etc... It took many years and hours everyday. Guess what in the end you still have much to learn. You see good arguments and bad all the time out of them all.

To say they deemphasize teh need for Christ IMO is simply not true. If you mean in the way many Baptist teach it... Yes, as much of what they teach is very poor doctrine taken out o context and pretty much deny the words of Christ and the rest of the Bible for abused scriptures of Paul. Christ is the center! Salvation is by grace through faith (proper response) but that is by proper defintion works with Christ in view in which he leads and is the focus. Your eternal destiny in the end as a "christian" will be based on your works. you won't find mental assent "faith only" teaching anywhere near shown in that manner.

Just like anything else in the life of the Christian your baptism was only as good as your faith and depth of repentance toward God. Either he changed you or not. You either wanted to life for him or not. Salvation is about relationship. Baptism is essential but so is doing as he commanded. Obviously your ground was not strong with his seed at the time and thus not committed. As you did not follow what he said either as you are his friend "IF" you do what he commands. He will give back as much as you put out. It is a sum game. All or nothing! When you have given your all he will pick you up the rest of the way. The problem with most people is that what we think is our "all" is a pathetic illusion. It's a poor perspective and our perception is skewed. Study the words of Christ and learn to truly read Paul not in the Reformed trash they right but understand what true faithfulness is. Study the real meaning and context of faith/trust. When it comes down to it either we are vessel for him to use at will or we hold back for personal pleasure of the flesh. We see the truth but we are really nor willing to experience the truth of "all" and truly set apart. A lot of lip service and self degenerating of the gospel to make us feel better that we are ok.... you now everyone else that looks spiritual does this and life is good... ah that must be God's blessing. Most of the time it is not. We must become bankrupt for him. It literally is all his and you have nothing. Is baptism was simply a check off the list then is was not baptism and stepping into covenant with having weighed the costs.