The Fear Of God: The Key To End Time Revival

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Interesting. You avoided Hell in this post; the Theological nightmare of Fear. A place where lost souls will burn in unending flames of torment, all because they didn't understand, didn't know, or didn't follow a certain Religion. Screaming for eternity, begging for relief every second into the eons of nothingness, all because of the blown effort of being born into a Home, Country, or Culture that didn't interpret the Bible correctly.

According to what you teach Michael, over 90% of humanity will wind up in Hell. This place more dark, more evil, so full of suffering our minds would explode if we truly saw this hole of terror. Families, children, peoples from every land will plummet into this undying pit for making mistakes or failing in this life.

Do you really believe this?

As I mentioned before, the Jews never taught of such a place and there is no mention of Eternal Damnation in the Old Testament. We have to wonder why?

If God made us in His image, and we are likened after Him, we would all admit that we would never send our Children into such a place, no matter what they did. Being human and created by God, we understand that failure and fault come to all of us and that mercy and His perfect love is our only hope.

I dont avoid teaching on Hell. My teaching on it is in several threads on this forum. Your problem is simple unbelief in Gods word. You refuse to accept the God of the Bible. Therefore you assure yourself he is a mere invention of men.

You say it was only put to record 100 years after Christ. That it was corrupted by the Catholics and the Anglicans. It is in effect nothing therefore people have nothing to fear.

I do believe the great majority of humanity will go to the place Yeshua called "Gehenna". Do I believe this because I am some mean person who is really wanting that to be true? No. I believe it because it is written and preserved for us as being the TEACHING OF YESHUA MESSIAH.....JESUS CHRIST.

It was HE that is Jesus himself who said that FEW would be saved. Was he a liar? Was he without knowledge?

I am just a disciple of his. I never inspired his words. They were given to him through the Eternal Spirit. I would be a fool to reject them.

If scripture is true the doctrine of Gehenna would be true whether you and I accept it or not. The Bible says all men are lost without Christ. Yeshua said to have our sins removed we must believe he is I AM.

He is the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by him.

HE SAID THAT. Not some fear loving, crazy fanatic. Unless one would say the things about him they say about me.

However just for the record I do NOT believe men will burn for billions upon billions of years in the Lake Of Fire. Rather I believe the Lake of Fire is the place where the souls of the wicked are destroyed.

Just like Yeshua said.

28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

Paul taught the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23. He did so because of what Yeshua taught. Not just the body but the SOUL of the wicked will be destroyed in Gehenna.

Now I hope this will not turn into a debate on Hell. I believe the lost go there. They suffer. Then in time they die. They pass into what Yeshua, Peter and Jude called "outer darkness" or the "mist of darkness".

In other words, nothingness. The soul that sinneth it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

But if anyone wants to debate this let them start another thread or bring up one of the former threads where I taught on it.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I dont avoid teaching on Hell. My teaching on it is in several threads on this forum. Your problem is simple unbelief in Gods word. You refuse to accept the God of the Bible. Therefore you assure yourself he is a mere invention of men.

You say it was only put to record 100 years after Christ. That it was corrupted by the Catholics and the Anglicans. It is in effect nothing therefore people have nothing to fear.

I do believe the great majority of humanity will go to the place Yeshua called "Gehenna". Do I believe this because I am some mean person who is really wanting that to be true? No. I believe it because it is written and preserved for us as being the TEACHING OF YESHUA MESSIAH.....JESUS CHRIST.

It was HE that is Jesus himself who said that FEW would be saved. Was he a liar? Was he without knowledge?

I am just a disciple of his. I never inspired his words. They were given to him through the Eternal Spirit. I would be a fool to reject them.

If scripture is true the doctrine of Gehenna would be true whether you and I accept it or not. The Bible says all men are lost without Christ. Yeshua said to have our sins removed we must believe he is I AM.

He is the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by him.

HE SAID THAT. Not some fear loving, crazy fanatic. Unless one would say the things about him they say about me.

However just for the record I do NOT believe men will burn for billions upon billions of years in the Lake Of Fire. Rather I believe the Lake of Fire is the place where the souls of the wicked are destroyed.

Just like Yeshua said.

28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

Paul taught the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23. He did so because of what Yeshua taught. Not just the body but the SOUL of the wicked will be destroyed in Gehenna.

Now I hope this will not turn into a debate on Hell. I believe the lost go there. They suffer. Then in time they die. They pass into what Yeshua, Peter and Jude called "outer darkness" or the "mist of darkness".

In other words, nothingness. The soul that sinneth it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

But if anyone wants to debate this let them start another thread or bring up one of the former threads where I taught on it.

Ahh, so you believe in annihilation....

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Interesting. You avoided Hell in this post; the Theological nightmare of Fear. A place where lost souls will burn in unending flames of torment, all because they didn't understand, didn't know, or didn't follow a certain Religion. Screaming for eternity, begging for relief every second into the eons of nothingness, all because of the blown effort of being born into a Home, Country, or Culture that didn't interpret the Bible correctly.

According to what you teach Michael, over 90% of humanity will wind up in Hell. This place more dark, more evil, so full of suffering our minds would explode if we truly saw this hole of terror. Families, children, peoples from every land will plummet into this undying pit for making mistakes or failing in this life.

Do you really believe this?

As I mentioned before, the Jews never taught of such a place and there is no mention of Eternal Damnation in the Old Testament. We have to wonder why?

If God made us in His image, and we are likened after Him, we would all admit that we would never send our Children into such a place, no matter what they did. Being human and created by God, we understand that failure and fault come to all of us and that mercy and His perfect love is our only hope.

Do you believe in Universal Reconciliation?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Many in the Churches no longer fear God. They think if they sin there will be no punishment.

Why do you think this is Michael?

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Many in the Churches no longer fear God. They think if they sin there will be no punishment.

I have not found this to be true AT ALL.

I know of no one who thinks they can steal, lie, cheat, commit adultery, murder... and face no punishment.

[Michael The Disciple]

Aquila said

Wow. God doesn't need you to get nasty to defend him or his word. That's my point Michael.

Present to me the evidence I am being nasty. I dont believe I am. Show me the quotes. Also remember THESE?

Quote:
But after time, this energy kills its victim with the poison of spiritual pride and self righteousness.

Quote:
It seems "Fear" tactics have grown out of the desire to control the ignorant and unlearned, breeding superstition, condemnation, and hate towards those who don’t believe like us.

Quote:
It (fear) also gives power to the manipulator, feeding the bowels of the Hypocrite. Think about it; if the Scribes and Pharisees believed in such a place, this would have been their ultimate theological tool for keeping common people under control and in check, while making themselves look better.

Quote:
Fear elevates corrupted Holiness. Fear causes us to grope in the dark and reach for things we cannot attain. Fear kills, slaughters, and maims the innocent.

Quote:
The World needs Love, not Fear. Love covers, heals, sustains, forgives, carries, and crosses all borders. Fear is a disease of the mind and is only another word for “Worry”. Fear has not held my 30 year marriage together. Trust, patience, and learning to love my wife with a full heart has. Fear breeds jealousy, suspicion, and rumors. I don’t want my wife and children to fear me, I want them to love me.

Would it be considered NASTY for someone to direct these comments toward ones writings?

Killing with poison of spiritual pride. Using fear tactics to control others because of hate.
Being a hypocrite, manipultor, and pharisee who uses fear to control others to my themself look good. Corrupting holiness, killing, slaughtering and maiming the innocent. Breeding jealousy, suspicion and rumors.

Would you consider that normal discussion? Why are you not teaching the one who wrote this about being nice?

As for me I will allow the admin of the board to decide if I have been "nasty" or not.

I will make no further attempt to justify myself about what I have written on this thread.

I have quoted MANY SCRIPTURES here.

As yet no one has made an attempt to analyze if I am accurately quoting the scriptures. Why not disagree by going into the quoted scriptures and saying why you disagree with them?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Present to me the evidence I am being nasty. I dont believe I am. Show me the quotes. Also remember THESE?

Would it be considered NASTY for someone to direct these comments toward ones writings?

Killing with poison of spiritual pride. Using fear tactics to control others because of hate.
Being a hypocrite, manipultor, and pharisee who uses fear to control others to my themself look good. Corrupting holiness, killing, slaughtering and maiming the innocent. Breeding jealousy, suspicion and rumors.

Would you consider that normal discussion? Why are you not teaching the one who wrote this about being nice?

As for me I will allow the admin of the board to decide if I have been "nasty" or not.

I will make no further attempt to justify myself about what I have written on this thread.

I have quoted MANY SCRIPTURES here.

As yet no one has made an attempt to analyze if I am accurately quoting the scriptures. Why not disagree by going into the quoted scriptures and saying why you disagree with them?

Michael, calm down and relax. Notforsale offers some valuable concerns.

It’s very sad that often those who teach fear of God and fear of Hell use that fear to control and manipulate instead of inspire and sanctify. That’s what you’re up against Michael. You’re a good apple who’s inheriting the legacy of a bunch of manipulative and abusive legalists. Sadly, you’re catching flack for what they have done to so many of us. I was a Pentecostal preacher in a larger ultra conservative church for a little over 4. I was progressing on the “ministry team” and I know all too well the level of spiritual pride that’s present. It was so bad I had written off all my family members at the behest of my pastor because they weren’t “sanctified”, meaning they didn’t follow our man made rules. Today my own family will rarely speaks to me even though I’ve tried to bridge the gap. I have personally seen members terrified for their own souls over things like skirt length or hair length. I’ve seen the pastor terrorize them with threats of Hell if ladies so much as cut their hair. I even remember a brother being sick with a long term illness that puzzled his doctors. He wasn’t able to attend church services regularly and I remember being told in a minister’s meeting not to call him or to visit him because “it’s all in his head and needs to repent”. Turns out my friend has a rare neurologic condition. Needless to say after being abandoned by our church and the ministry he sat weeping at home between doctor’s appointments. I remember his voice on my voice mail asking me what he’d done wrong. He doesn’t talk to me anymore either. His only sin? Getting to sick to come to a religious service. The standards for ministry and good standing were so high many of us had double lives. While we denounced television we’d watch video or movies over the internet and act like we’d not violated our principles. Yes, that made us hypocrites. I’ve seen women on fixed incomes tithe and give offerings that they didn’t have to give only to be turned away when they were in need because, “The house of God has bills too.” This widow put in her two mites and like Pharisees we refused to deliver justice and mercy toward her when she was in financial need. I remember a minister coming to our locality and setting up a church. Instead of my pastor being excited that another UPCI church was in the area, he treated it as “competition”. This church’s lower standards (in our opinion) made them a subject of disdain and local ridicule. We denounced them in every way imaginable… to make ourselves look good. We corrupted true holiness by focusing on our man made religious standards assuming that God thought like the UPCI and that if one didn’t line up to every standard they would eventually be lost. Of course this is a self perpetuating problem… because if a person struggles with a standard eventually they are rejected. This causes them to fall away hurt, rejected, and alone. When they do, we sadly say, “See, if you don’t follow the standards you’ll fall away eventually.” It’s really basic groupthink psychology. Because our position was so easily lost if one rule wasn’t followed, we often were very secretive. In addition if we saw a brother who wasn’t lining up to every standard…but he got more preaching time and was even blessed to evangelize. We had higher standards than he did… why didn’t the pastor pick one of us? So jealousy was common. Also pastors ridiculed larger churches….until our church got larger. Jealousy was terrible. Often our standards were so high all it took was an implication of fault at some point and that brother was viewed with suspicion. Our typical logic was that while he may not have done anything wrong, he must be above reproach. Therefore we have to cautiously fellowship him.

It was truly a sad state of affairs. My wife eventually stopped attending church and rejected Christianity all together because she was confronted and rebuked with curses because we couldn’t attend a prayer meeting. Why? Because we only owned one car and both of us worked. These prayer meetings were scheduled at 7am. There was no way to get our son to the day care, drop her off at work, and then get me to work on time if we attended. When the pastor’s wife cornered my wife about our not attending our ministry was threatened. When my wife tried to explain our circumstances and voiced that after much prayer we felt “released” by the Lord and so we weren’t going to attend that one service, my wife was rebuked and told that she had a “spirit of rebellion”. It exploded with my wife being shattered and heart broken over the fact that the spiritual leaders we loved and followed without question would be so misunderstanding and condemnatory toward us… especially since we attended EVERY service and were involved in multiple departments. After leaving the church my wife became totally entrenched in her job. Her spirituality spiraled further and further downward. We tried to attend another church but she was gun shy and both of us found it hard to trust spiritual leadership. Our marriage fell apart and today she’s not the same person she used to be. Many things have happened and we are now in the process of divorce.

Churches make Christian families or break Christian families. Sadly the ultra conservative types have far too many broken Christians in their wake today.

While you’re approaching this by analytical verse by verse exposition as to why your thoughts are correct according to your church’s interpretation…. We’re coming from the place of having been there, done that, and been burned badly… so badly some of us have lost the families and lives we dearly loved. Please understand. That’s why when the subject of “fearing the Lord” comes up we want you to be VERY specific about what we are to fear. Do we fear the Lord if we don’t abide by the man made standards of the UPCI or are you talking about the Ten Commandments? I think we all shudder with a bit of fear and trepidation when we know we’ve violated one of God’s moral laws. But if you’re going to terrorize me about television (over the internet by the way), sleeve length, skirt length, uncut hair, women’s pants, or some other man made rule…don’t bother.

We’re done with being scared and being hurt over all the man made junk. Give us Jesus. Tell us about the Lord’s Commandments. But don’t terrorize me over the opinions of UPCI. It’s like dealing with a child who’s been beaten daily. If you raise your hand to merely wave, many times they flinch. Well, many of us have been spiritually mistreated and abused in ways you’ll never know or understand. When you begin speaking about fearing God, holiness “standards”, etc. we spiritually flinch. If you’re wise you’ll understand what I’m saying. If you’re unwise you’ll rebut my entire point by dismissing our hurt altogether.

So, you’re ministering to people who a spiritually hurting. What do you do? Hurt them more? Drive it deeper? Pour salt on the wound? Or do you minister healing and peace? Knowing that God will sort out any misconceptions in the end? Or do you admit that you’re presently not prepared to minister to us. I do believe the Lord inspired your post Michael, but I don’t think it was for the reasons you think it was for. You stand to learn a lot here. Hopefully you’ll walk away a spiritual healer instead of a spiritual policeman swinging his Billy Club at all comers. When that transformation occurs in you most likely it will take you being broken, it did me. But if it comes through revelation here on this thread or brokenness later you should upgrade your screen name from Michael The Disciple to Michael the Apostle. Because then, like Peter, you’ll be able to strengthen your brethren.

I hope you understand. God bless and keep you and yours.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Our marriage fell apart and today she’s not the same person she used to be. Many things have happened and we are now in the process of divorce.

I am so sorry, Aquila.

[NotforSale]

[QUOTE=Aquila;876833]QUOTE]

Aquila, your post is beyond powerful. After 31 years in the Apostolic/Pentecostal Church, I could share stories that would shutter the hearts of people.

My first pastor was hard, demanding, and used many tactics of fear to keep his sheep in subjection. Obey them, wives submit, God's Men are to be respected and not questioned, and so on. When he fell into adultery, losing his family and the church, the saints scattered, confused, broken and to this day are damaged from this experience. There's much more I could say about this.

I've told you I'm a pastor, and the rivalry and division you talk about is not exaggerated. Those on the pew don't see it, but let me tell you, the truth would shock the laity. Church has become a game, and pastors become furious when saints move to a different location (church) that might be close by. The pressure to have a large congregation is unprecedented. Bigger is better, and the political appetite of our movement seeks those with the numbers (money). I've sat at tables as pastors railed on on one another because the other stole his sheep, or the convictions of "That Church" were lower.

You're right about people being on here that’ve been hurt or damaged by religious fear tactics derived from Biblical accounts or instruction. De-programming can take years, and some never really come out of it. If they make a wrong move, or allow their minds to wander back to the day of demanded obedience, sleepless nights and burdens of old can return. We just watched a film on the Mormon Church and Polygamy. Women that have escaped these colonies, after time, some of them strangely return because they feel it is their God given duty to live this type of life, even though they once realized they were in bondage.

My heart is broken over your wife. Brother, I've seen this so much I can hardly lift my head with a smile because of our Family problems. Divorce is so high in the Church today, and we are explaining it away as the Worlds fault. We tell people, "Don't fellowship with them. Don't talk to them. Leave your family and loved ones. It's God's Will." We are not supposed to splitting families, we are supposed to mending them.

I could go on and on. I appreciate your candid testimony. Our honesty about these tough issues is going to help many.

As far as Universal Reconciliation, I have to admit, I lean that way. After pastoring in a Native American village for a couple of years and doing many in depth studies of Biblical history and origins of Scripture, I realized many things. People on this Planet have had very limited access to Scripture over the majority of years of our existence. This means, so few have ever heard of Hell and its unbelievable content. I find it deeply troubling that we can be so bold, talking about Hell like we've been there. It's easy to do if we embrace denial (ignoring the facts).

The bigger picture will help us all to have a more balanced view of Religion and the Bible. If we continue to ponder truth from the Time we live in now, we will fail in obtaining a valid and honest understanding about human beings and God. I’ve talked much about “Out of Sight, Out of Mind”, and we can struggle to know the veracity of things if we don’t force ourselves to honestly perceive the image of Mankind as a whole.

We will pray for your family.

[Michael The Disciple]

Not For Sale

As far as Universal Reconciliation, I have to admit, I lean that way. After pastoring in a Native American village for a couple of years and doing many in depth studies of Biblical history and origins of Scripture, I realized many things. People on this Planet have had very limited access to Scripture over the majority of years of our existence. This means, so few have ever heard of Hell and its unbelievable content. I find it deeply troubling that we can be so bold, talking about Hell like we've been there. It's easy to do if we embrace denial (ignoring the facts).

Well sure if scripture has no authority we could certainly believe that no one will suffer eternal punishment. If scripture has no authority we can believe anything we chose.

If we cant trust the scriptures on what would one build a belief of Universal Salvation? We know Yeshua himself never mentioned such a thing and that he did speak a lot about Gehenna commonly called "Hell".

You say Hell is UNBELIEVABLE. For you perhaps but to those who believe we have Bibles that have preserved the teachings of Christ there is no option.

Perhaps you may be able to convince some that the Bible is corrupt and Hell is an imagination.

Thats why this thread needed to exist. To warn those who do still fear God and tremble at his word what is happening. There are those who scoff at the Bible and blot out what they dont like. Then there are those who say they accept its message while continuing in sin.

Did the Holy Spirit want us to save some with fear?

22: And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Jude 23

This simple yet very important truth is fought tooth and nail. Just look at this thread! Even those saying they believe in the fear of God have said we should not talk about it.

Yet the Spirit said through Jude we will save some with this message!

Pulling them out of the fire!

Todays teachers are pulling the fire out of the scriptures rather than sinners out of the fire!