Glorified Flesh?

[votivesoul]

Finally, the debate between natural and spiritual from 1 Corinthians 15.

Let it be known that the word "natural" comes from the Greek word psychikon, from psuche, the Greek word for "soul". Therefore, "natural" should be understood as something close to "soulish". Natural therefore has nothing to do with a physical, material body, but is dealing with the immaterial soulish nature of humanity.

See:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_c...ians/15-44.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/5591.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/5590.htm

The soulish body then that Paul writes of, is something altogether different than the bodies of our physical selves. The physical body is but flesh, that is, sarx. Our souls are incarnated into our physical bodies, but they are not physical in and of themselves.

These souls then, that Paul is talking about, are understood to be that which is created when animating spirit from God combines with physical flesh, making us "living souls" (see Genesis 2:7). The body (that is, the flesh) without the spirit is dead (James 2:26). But body combined with spirit makes for a soul, which is to say, a person. That is what Paul is dealing with, being sown a soulish body, being raised a spiritual body, that is, shedding the incarnated state of corruptible humanity to achieve an incorruptible spiritual state of permanent, perfected Christ-likeness in the resurrection.

[mfblume]

What's tjjj who Kept telling me to man up and answer, when I was actually writing posts while he typed that, now saying he won't answer?

[mfblume]

I agree with you mostly, Votivesoul. I would just add that I think the body of Jesus is still in existence and not to be rematerialized as if it exists, then didn't exist, and exists again. I'd say natural Physics don't affect the spiritual body. Who knows what it can do as far as entering heaven or not? I also don't see heaven as located in the physical universe. It's just another dimension that's non physical , for lack of a better word.

[Nicodemus1968]

The reason for this thread, was because where I Pastor I’m around 60%-70% of people believe in a physical kingdom that will come to pass in the near future. Jesus will come in his physical fleshy body and oversee a physical kingdom, matter of fact if they follow all the religions law, they may even have they’re own planet and become a god over it. I give bible studies at our local jail, and one of the men brought this up, how as Jesus ascended into heaven in his physical form, that’s the way we shall be as well. We may not have blood flowing, yet as you are now you will be in heaven, yet spiritualized. I wanted to see what others thought on this matter.

[Nicodemus1968]

2.) Christ's physically resurrected reality defies the laws of physics and all other forms of natural science and medicine. His body had massive, unhealed wounds in them, and yet, He wasn't bleeding all over the place, and felt no pain, as shown when He invited Thomas to "reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side" (John 20:27). No normal, human body can experience holes in the hands and feet, and have a gaping hole the size of a Roman spear-head sufficient for a man to put his entire hand into it, and be considered standard.

I appreciate your insight and wisdom on the matter. I just want to put some thoughts on the matter as well.

I would argue that the whole existence of Jesus was thing short of miraculous. Born of a women, without the seed of man. Confounded the religious leaders of the day with his wisdom and knowledge. Was able to call men back from the dead (John 11), was able to calm the sea by his word (Mark 4:39), healed a blind man with his spit and dirt, (John 9:6). With that said I’m not refuting anything Votivesoul said, I’m just trying to clearify some things. Those miracles I mentioned are just a couple to what he has done, read John 21, all the books cannot contain the things Jesus had done, that’s amazing. So, why would we expect anything else with his resurrection from the dead? Of course he wasn’t bleeding, he bled on the cross, the blood has already taken effect! TJJJ said it best, the resurrection was proof what the Holy Ghost will do for us, he showed the spiritual in physical way. Just like his death and burial, he was our example. Just as other graves where opened and men appeared before many, Jesus did the same. Death, and the grave had no power on him, yet he is SOURCE of all power.

3.) Jesus could obscure Himself supernaturally, after He resurrected, so that close, personal friends and disciples, who had walked with Him, talked with Him, and had even eaten the Passover Seder with Him before He was crucified, couldn't recognize Him (Luke 24:16). This isn't something a normal human can do, without a disguise or some other act of subterfuge. Jesus somehow made His face not look like His face, or somehow blinded these men's minds from experiencing standard facial recognition.

If the former, then Jesus can shift the physical structure and appearance of His face at will, making the physical nature of His human body unlike anything that has ever existed before.

4.) Jesus can dematerialize and rematerialize Himself at will (Luke 24:31 and John 20:19 and 26). Whether He can miraculously teleport, become invisible (i.e. refract light away from Himself), or phase Himself through walls, or all of the above, the fact is, in order to do so, the nature of His physical body had, in the resurrection, to have undergone a fundamental shift in what other normal human bodies are capable of doing. In order to do what Jesus did (disappear, reappear, teleport, and/or etc.) means that Jesus had to have been able to divest Himself of any standard molecular reality, while maintaining control over His existence in order to reinvest Himself with molecular reality. Physical molecules at the microscopic level are still physical, and cannot occupy the same space as say, the molecules that made up the door Jesus must have teleported or phased through in John 20. This means His molecules passed out of physical existence into a spiritual reality we cannot comprehend, then re-emerged back into comprehensible, physical reality.

As he appeared before the disciples in the room, or make himself not known to those walking on the road. He did the same before he resurrected. He passed through the crowd (Luke 4:30) Jesus defied gravity while he walked on the water (Matthew 15:26), look what happened with the transfiguration, (Matthew 17). What I’m trying to say is, God had a goal (if I can say that) in mind, to come to earth as a sacrifice, he was the Lamb Abraham talked about in Genesis, he was the spotless lamb from the foundation of the world. John 4:24, God is a spirit, and if we believe in ONE God manifested in the flesh... (1 Timothy 3:16) then we must believe Jesus is a spirit because (John 10:30) “I and my Father are one.” The flesh had one purpose, to die on a cross. That’s it! It’s not some trophy in heaven to show off, Jesus went back to spirit form at his ascension. Why, because God is a Spirit, no space can contain him, his spirit is the only spirit that can work by himself, we as humans we need help, demons work in clusters, but Gods spirit works alone. If you want a physical body of Jesus, look at the church. We’re many members but ONE body.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

The reason for this thread, was because where I Pastor I’m around 60%-70% of people believe in a physical kingdom that will come to pass in the near future. Jesus will come in his physical fleshy body and oversee a physical kingdom, matter of fact if they follow all the religions law, they may even have they’re own planet and become a god over it. I give bible studies at our local jail, and one of the men brought this up, how as Jesus ascended into heaven in his physical form, that’s the way we shall be as well. We may not have blood flowing, yet as you are now you will be in heaven, yet spiritualized. I wanted to see what others thought on this matter.

We are in the kingdom now. Jesus is ruling and we are involved ruling with Him, treading on serpents and scorpions and fighting with the sword of the word of God. This is how the Kingdom will continue after the resurrection, except there will be no sin,devil, demons or sinners. And the kingdom is not going to become physical any more than it is now, with us involved having physical bodies. We wil have immortal ones at the res'urrection. And we will see Jesus in His physical immortal body, without the kingdom becoming physical.

Adam had dominion over the earth without a physical kingdom.

So, what do you mean by physical Kingdom, and why think whatever that means has to be the case if we believe Jesus will be with us in a physical body?

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree with you mostly, Votivesoul. I would just add that I think the body of Jesus is still in existence and not to be rematerialized as if it exists, then didn't exist, and exists again. I'd say natural Physics don't affect the spiritual body. Who knows what it can do as far as entering heaven or not? I also don't see heaven as located in the physical universe. It's just another dimension that's non physical , for lack of a better word.

Mike,
Why does the body of Jesus have to be in existence today? For what purpose, Jesus came in the flesh for a purpose. Is there something still lacking, not fulfilled, why would the body need to still exist?

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Mike,
Why does the body of Jesus have to be in existence today? For what purpose, Jesus came in the flesh for a purpose. Is there something still lacking, not fulfilled, why would the body need to still exist?

Because He’s coming back...

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Mike,
Why does the body of Jesus have to be in existence today? For what purpose, Jesus came in the flesh for a purpose. Is there something still lacking, not fulfilled, why would the body need to still exist?

Nicodemus, do you believe in Oneness?

The Son of God is a term referring to the incarnation:

Luke 1:35 KJV - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


In Revelation He is still the Son of God:

Rev 1:6 KJV - And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 2:27 KJV - And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

If the glorified body doesn't exist anymore, then there is no incarnation, there is no Son of God anymore, there is no Lamb. If the incarnation doesn't exist anymore, you either have to believe in the existence of the Son as a separate God that doesn't need an incarnation to be (unitarian, trinitarian, etc...); or the whole Bible, after the ascension of Jesus Christ, refers to Christ as a allegory or a past event before Pentecost, including Revelation.

Don't you think an empty grave tells you a clear loud message from God? Why do we need that testimony for?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Mike,
Why does the body of Jesus have to be in existence today? For what purpose, Jesus came in the flesh for a purpose. Is there something still lacking, not fulfilled, why would the body need to still exist?

Yes, the world rules by man, last Adam is what I think folks are missing. The plan is not just to save us from sin. Saskatoon gets rid of the separation Between us and God It was to restore man in a kingdom over earth. That's in effect now. But we don't live forever as Adam would have had he not sinned. This is next on the agenda, and the resurrection will do that for us.